If . . . . .

[opebo]

Bush’s position is irrelevant. What is important is the fear that was successfully inserted in the minds of the “Religious Right” people that if Kerry is elected, gay marriage will be recognized.

It is not too difficult to indoctrinate these people, many of whom believe even today that Sadam is responsible for 9/11.

The interesting thing here is that Kerry voted against DOMA, which is some indication that Kerry was not opposed to same sex marriages.  It's far from "indoctrination," but another example of Kerry hiding from his record.  While he said he opposed it, he didn't support statutory action to prevent one state from being forced to recognize another state's same sex marraige.

Bush's and Kerry's positions are immaterial. What so ridiculous and frightening about it is, that this stupid non-issue decided who would be the president of the strongest nation in the world.

It isn't a 'non-issue' to the people who voted for Bush - hatred and abuse of homosexuals is a high priority with them.  It is really symbolic of their desire to legislate the demise of blacks, liberals, atheists, etc., but so far the only group they seem to be able to get away with oppressing are the gays.  You know the old chestnut -  'first they came for the Jews, and I was silent, then they came for the... etc.. and finally they came for me, and no one was left to speak for me'.

But it is a rather odd circumstance that a highly dangerous military-industrial complex, built upon the abilities and resources of the civilized portion of the nation, is now being wielded by the uncivilized portion.  A highly dangerous situation, and one that brings to mind no other historical precedent than that of Germany in the 1930's.

[opebo]

I am not talking about the position itself, but rather about the fact that "Gay Marriage" became a crucial issue by naive ignorants who are confident that WMD was found in Iraq and that Sadam is responsible for 9/11

I love your use of the noun 'ignorants'. 

It should be a new polling category.   

[opebo]

Opebo...bopeep  whatever.....you are the epitome of bigotry trying to attribute all the ills of whatever your warped sense of the world is to religion and the majority right.  Your secular view of the world is not the majority view in this country.  Pack it up and head to Europe where you can bask in all the social secularism you want to.  Breathe deep the failings of secularism.  The dead-end.  The death.  The doom of that very way.  It is seductive and you have been seduced.  GO NOW!!!!

What 'failings of secularism'?  By every measure of health, happiness, and well being, Europeans are far ahead of Americans.

[opebo]

Opebo...bopeep  whatever.....you are the epitome of bigotry trying to attribute all the ills of whatever your warped sense of the world is to religion and the majority right.  Your secular view of the world is not the majority view in this country.  Pack it up and head to Europe where you can bask in all the social secularism you want to.  Breathe deep the failings of secularism.  The dead-end.  The death.  The doom of that very way.  It is seductive and you have been seduced.  GO NOW!!!!

What 'failings of secularism'?  By every measure of health, happiness, and well being, Europeans are far ahead of Americans.

The 20th Century has shown a general decline in Western Europe, in terms of both power and culture.  The iportance of Europe has been eclipsed. 

Who cares about that?  I'm talking about quality of life for the average European - it far exceeds that of the average American.

[opebo]

Opebo...bopeep  whatever.....you are the epitome of bigotry trying to attribute all the ills of whatever your warped sense of the world is to religion and the majority right.  Your secular view of the world is not the majority view in this country.  Pack it up and head to Europe where you can bask in all the social secularism you want to.  Breathe deep the failings of secularism.  The dead-end.  The death.  The doom of that very way.  It is seductive and you have been seduced.  GO NOW!!!!

What 'failings of secularism'?  By every measure of health, happiness, and well being, Europeans are far ahead of Americans.

The 20th Century has shown a general decline in Western Europe, in terms of both power and culture.  The iportance of Europe has been eclipsed. 

Who cares about that?  I'm talking about quality of life for the average European - it far exceeds that of the average American.

The 51% of the electorate who voted for Bush care about that.

If you'll read Skankbear's post that I was responding to, I think you'll see my point.  Secularism hasn't caused any sort of 'failure' of society in Europe.  To the contrary, the people are happy, well paid (in a strong currency), get long vacations, are in excellent health, free to do as they like.. what could be better?

[opebo]

Still waiting for you to back up your claim that European quality of life is better.

Better pay, MUCH longer vacations, fewer work hours, better medical care, better food, better transportation options, stronger currency, better and more available education, more personal freedoms - drug use and prostitution tolerated in most countries..

Really, you're deceiving yourself if you think the US is either the Land of the Free, or the place with the best standard of living.

[opebo]

Anyone can say that. I'm looking for hard facts, or at least a subjective explanation.

OK - they get longer vacations - the standard is 6 weeks, rising to 8 once you've been on the job a while, while in America the standard is a ridiculous TWO weeks!

The average hours worked per year is several  hundred lower than in the US:  http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lab_hou_wor

Medical care is available to all, whereas it is not available to all in the US.  Things like obesity and infant mortality are much worse here.

The better food thing is subjective, but anyone who's been to ANY other country can tell you the US has horrible food.

They have very convenient public transportation, we largely do not.

Their currency is stronger - going from $.80 to $1.30 in just the last four years.  Their spending power when they travel dwarfs ours.

College education is free in most European countries.

And lastly, drug use and prostitution is tolerated in most European countries, greatly increasing personal freedoms and the quality of life.

All in all, the comparison is glaringly divergent.

[opebo]

It depends who you are. Obviously labor is going to be better off in socialist Europe.

Labor is approximately 98% of the population.  And unless you have a couple of million coming upon reaching Man's Estate, labor is going to be YOU, Philip.

[opebo]

Leave myself to me. You're having a hard enough time making your life worth something.

Management and labor aren't the only two categories of people.

No, the only two categories are owners and labour.  'Management' is part of labour.

[opebo]

So a computer programer is 'labor' in Opebo world?

Yes.  And to any economist. 

[opebo]

Here's an interesting article on American's abominable lack of vacation time.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3081147/

[opebo]

I'm talking about labor as in McDonalds. Not computer programming, which offers a much higher quality of life.

Labor is when you work for a living - for pay in the form of wages, salary, or commission.   All workers, whether computer programmer or WaMart slug, share the same interests and position in the system, vis-a-vis the Owners.

[opebo]

How can you possibly regard life expectency as a sign of advancement.  A portion of it is genetic and European contries tend to be genetically homogenous.

Yes, America has many races, and the non-white ones tend not to have any medical care.

[opebo]

The point is, people working at a European McDonalds are probably better off. Europe's computer programmers, on the other hand, are not - it varies from skill level to skill level, company to company.

Most people don't spend their life as a Burger King employee.

The real difference is that Capital does much, much better in the US. 

And yes, lots of people spend their life at the lower levels of employment - and in future many more will.  I hate to break it to you, but the US is not a nation of computer programmers.

[opebo]

How can you possibly regard life expectency as a sign of advancement.  A portion of it is genetic and European contries tend to be genetically homogenous.

Yes, America has many races, and the non-white ones tend not to have any medical care.

Actually, that is not rally the case. 

You are comparing largely mono-ethnic societies with multi-ethnic ones.  Then you are suggesting that the mono-ethnic societies, the ones with all the white people with it, as "better." 

Bopeepo, isn't your and Shira's position ultimately, the country's that are "better" have more white people in them?

Obviously no. 

Though it is true that in monoethnic societies, fewer people are as deeply oppressed as minorities are in the US.