Dutch director killed by islamist fanatic! (user search)
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 31, 2024, 06:59:29 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Dutch director killed by islamist fanatic! (search mode)
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Dutch director killed by islamist fanatic!  (Read 20131 times)
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« on: November 21, 2004, 07:56:21 AM »
« edited: November 21, 2004, 12:12:04 PM by Old Europe »

In both the Netherlands and Germany, banning parties that do not adhere to political correctness is done, just as in Belgium.

In post-WWII Germany two political parties were banned:
1) the nazist "Sozialistische Reichspartei" (SRP) in 1952
2) the communist "Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands" (KPD) in 1956

A few years ago there was an attempt made to ban the neo-fascist "Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands" (NPD), but it failed before court.

Your statement is implying that parties are banned on a regular basis here, but the facts are, that only two parties were banned back in the 50ies and the third attempt to ban a party failed recently.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2004, 08:14:19 AM »
« Edited: November 21, 2004, 12:13:09 PM by Old Europe »

Well, its nice to know that the most recent attempt to ban political competition in Germany has failed.

Well, if I remember correctly the idea of banning the NPD was born in the late 90ies when Germany was shocked by a series of neo-fascist incidents... a few people were also killed etc. The government tried not to look completely helpless and to show that they do SOMETHING, they came up with the idea to ban this party.


Why don't you try to get Belgium to drop its ban?

Who do you mean with "you"? Me or "you Germans"? :-D

In the first case: I donīt know what I could do.

In the second case: I donīt think itīs a good idea to tell the Belgian courts what they have to do.

Anyway, I donīt feel competent enough to make judgements about the Belgians what they should do with the Vlaams Blok.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2004, 12:21:34 PM »

Excuse me, but in my country sensible people don't believe that the judiciary should suppress freedom of expression and engage in tyrannical rule.

Yes, I guess in your country "sensible people" are only maintaining prejudices against other nations.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2004, 12:36:09 PM »
« Edited: November 22, 2004, 03:32:51 PM by Old Europe »

I cannot speak for others, but, my opinions on other countries are based either on matters of public record (I have cited several in previous posts) or my personal experiences.

In that case I would strongly recommend that youīre looking for far better sources and that you reconsider your personal experiences again. Most of your statements are either highly exaggerated or simply not true.

To quote some of your earlier remarks:

--> "In much of western europe, elections are 'won' on a similiar basis by banning those who disagree with the idiotology of the 'politically correct.'"

--> "In both the Netherlands and Germany, banning parties that do not adhere to political correctness is done, just as in Belgium."

--> "Are you denying that parties in Belgium and Germany are banned if they don't toe the line on poltical correctness?"

As I already said there were two bans of a party in post-WWII Germany. Both cases took place 50 years ago. This does not sound exactly as if "elections are 'won' ... by banning those who disagree with the idiotology of the 'politically correct'".

I admit that my knowledge concerning the legal situation of party bans in Denmark or Belgium is somewhat limited, but considering the fact that YOUR knowledge about party bans in Germany is extremely insufficient it seems plausible, if not likely, that your information about the other countries mentioned is similarly distorted.


And if you are really concerned about the political freedoms of European neo-Nazis Iīll give you a full chronology of neo-fascist parties in post-fascist Germany.
Currently, there are three "major" neo-Nazi parties in Germany: the "Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands" (NPD), the "Deutsche Volksunion" (DVU), and "Die Republikaner (REP)" (not related to the American party with the same name). Of these parties the NPD is the most extremist, while the REP is the most "moderate", with the DVU being somewhere in the middle. Historical post-WWII Nazi parties include the "Deutsche Rechtspartei" (DReP), the "Sozialistische Reichspartei" (SRP), and the "Deutsche Reichspartei" (DRP).

My chronology:

1946 - The DReP is founded.

1949 - The DReP wins 5 seats in the German parliament (Bundestag). The SRP is founded by former members of the DReP.

1950 - The DRP is founded. The DReP merges with the DRP.

1951 - The SRP wins 16 seats in the parliament of Lower Saxony and 8 seats in the parliament of Bremen. The DRP wins 3 seats in the parliament of Lower Saxony.
 
1952 - The SRP is outlawed by the Contitutional Court. Most of its members join the DRP.

1955 - The DRP wins 6 seats in the parliament of Lower Saxony.

1959 - The DRP wins a seat in the parliament of Rhineland-Palatinate.

1964 - The NPD is founded. The DRP dissolves after most of its members joined the NPD.

1966 - The NPD wins 8 seats in the parliament of Hesse and 5 seats in the parliament of Bavaria.

1967 - The NPD wins 4 seats in the parliament of Schleswig-Holstein, 4 seats in the parliament of Rhineland-Palatinate, 10 seats in the parliament of Lower Saxony, and 8 seats in the parliament of Bremen.

1968 - The NPD wins 12 seats in the parliament of Baden-Württemberg.

1971 - The DVU is founded.

1983 - The REP is founded.

1987 - The DVU wins a seat in the parliament of Bremen.

1989 - The REP wins 11 seats in the parliament of Berlin and 6 seats in the European Parliament.

1991 - The DVU wins 6 seats in the parliament of Bremen.
 
1992 - The REP wins 15 seats in the parliament of Baden-Württemberg. The DVU wins 6 seats in the parliament of Schleswig-Holstein.

1996 - The REP wins 14 seats in the parliament of Baden-Württemberg.

1998 - The DVU wins 16 seats in the parliament of Saxony-Anhalt.

1999 - The DVU wins a seat in the parliament of Bremen and 5 seats in the parliament of Brandenburg.

2003 - The DVU wins a seat in the parliament of Bremen.
 
2004 - The DVU wins 6 seats in the parliament of Brandenburg. The NPD wins 12 seats in the parliament of Saxony.


However, the scum are in the saddle in many western european countries and are using regulations to prevent competition.

Who exactly do you mean with "scum"? The democratic parties? And who isnīt scum then? The Nazis or the communists or both?
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2004, 01:25:16 PM »

How many times is banning of political opposition too many?

For me, one is too many.

In Germany two parties were banned FIFTY YEARS ago and because of that Germany shall burn in hell forever or what?


I have cited specific examples of the banning, which you have not bothered to deny (because they are true).

So, because I didnīt "deny" them, I automatically agreed that your examples are "true"Huh Thatīs a very flawed logic.

As I already said TWO TIMES I donīt know enough about the specific cases in the other countries mentioned to feel competent enough to discuss them. This does NOT mean that I automatically agree with you.


How many bannings is too many for you?

I know you find this difficult to understand, but I believe what I have seen with my own eyes, not you tales.

"Tales"? Are you saying Iīm lying???


Those who choose to ban other who disagree with them are scum.

Did you know that the NSDAP was banned in 1945 on orders of the Allied military governors? By your logic, Dwight D. Eisenhower is "scum" too. Or more specific: Harry S. Truman is "scum", because Eisenhower just carried out the orders.
George W. Bush would also be "scum", because he banned the Baath party in Iraq. Or doesnīt that matter, because it didnīt happen in the United States itself, but in a foreign country?
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2004, 05:39:29 PM »

It's not just banning parties. It's suing them, sabotaging them, arrested their members on false charges, putting government spies in their organization, etc.

Germany is an occupation regime. Every day it rules is a massive crime against humanity... Schroeder deserves nothing but the gallows. Many European nations are the same.

This statement is so stupid, it isnīt even worth discussing it.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2004, 03:32:45 AM »

>Well, excuse me.  I gave examples from more than one country of the banning of political parties.  You try to say it is "rare."

When I gave you a specific example of a recent banning in Beligium, you try to weasel out of the subject.

I already explained several times why I "weaseled" out of the subject and Iīm getting tired to do it over and over again. For a last time: My knowledge of this specific case in Belgium is too limited to say something "oh, thatīs great!" or "oh, what the heck...Huh". Can you accept this? I really donīt know what I should say about the Belgian case... without guessing?


I repeat the earlier question that you have failed to answer.  How many bannings is too many for you?

Oh, I thought this one was a rethoric question. Iīll try to give you a honest answer: I have no idea, but it should as close to zero as possible.

Was the ban of the SRP and the KPD in 1952 and 1956 justified? In retrospect: Most likely not. Did the German politicians of the 50ies who initialized these bans think that these parties are a serious threat to democracy? Probably yes. So, what? Theyīre all deceased by now.


>Previously you had noted that I should believe what YOU post, not what I have seen for myself.  Well, again I repeat, "I know you find this difficult to understand, but I believe what I have seen with my own eyes, not you tales."

Okay, which specific parts of my earlier statements find you hard to believe and which parts are contradicting with "what you have seen for yourself"? And what exactly "have you seen for yourself" (concerning Germany)?


>When you try to limit your counterexamples to Germany, you are dissembling.

I already explained that above. If you think thatīs "dissembling" Iīm sorry but I donīt know what I could say else.


>I realize you have a great deal of difficulty in distinguishing a situation when an area is under martial law, and when normal legal processes prevail.

Matters which are totally unacceptable in peaceable situations may be acceptable under martial law.

Are you suggesting that martial law should prevail in peactime?

Ah, at least you admit that the ban of party is justified under certain circumstances. Well, I could now argue that West Germany was technically still under "martial law" at the time the decision to ban the SRP and KPD was made, because the Allied occupation lasted till 1955 and until that all decisions of the West German government had to be approved by the Allied High Commission. Until 1955 it wasnīt even unusual that the occupation forces acted on their own against certain political parties.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2004, 07:21:54 AM »

So, lets recapitulae for the record.

You "know nothing, nothing" about the rest of europe outside of Germany?

I never said that.


Hmm, have you checked out the subject title of this thread?

Last time I checked, the Netherlands were NOT part of Germany.  Or are you going to tell me otherwise?

And Belgium isnīt a part of the Netherlands neither. So what?


If you wish to limit your examples solely to Germany, the do NOT post on threads concerning matters outside of Germany.

I didnīt start with Germany in this thread, so why do you blame me?

The only reason why I posted in this topic was your claim that elections in Germany are basically won by regularly banning parties. I tried to correct this and then you started to ask me about Belgium and the court rulings concerning the Vlaams Blok, something I really donīt know much about. So, what do you want to do now? Suing me for not being familiar with the current status of the Vlaams Blok?

If you disagree with me thatīs fine, but please donīt become childish or make "rules" which you donīt follow yourself.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2004, 07:46:21 AM »

Do you remember how in Iran the 'elections' were rigged by banning all candidates who did not adhere to islamo-facism?

In much of western europe, elections are 'won' on a similiar basis by banning those who disagree with the idiotology of the 'politically correct.'

...

In both the Netherlands and Germany, banning parties that do not adhere to political correctness is done, just as in Belgium.

The rulers of many western european countries are afraid of their own people and are slowly inflicting a totalitarian state there to hold onto power.


Facts are facts.

The Iranian council banned candidates who did not toe their line and in Belgium (and other counties cited), if you dare disagree with the prevailing line you get banned as well.


Are you denying that parties in Belgium and Germany are banned if they don't toe the line on poltical correctness?


First hypothesis: "In much of western europe, elections are 'won' on a similiar basis by banning those who disagree with the idiotology of the 'politically correct.'"

Second hypothesis: "In both the Netherlands and Germany, banning parties that do not adhere to political correctness is done, just as in Belgium.
The rulers of many western european countries are afraid of their own people and are slowly inflicting a totalitarian state there to hold onto power."

Third hypothesis: "The Iranian council banned candidates who did not toe their line and in Belgium (and other counties cited), if you dare disagree with the prevailing line you get banned as well."
(Other countries cited would include Germany).
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2004, 12:49:50 PM »
« Edited: November 24, 2004, 12:51:57 PM by Old Europe »

You really need to learn something both about language and logic (in this case set theory)

First, in Iran, candidates were banned from the ballot who did not agree with the mullahs (do you dispute it?)

Second, you have acknowledged that parties have been banned in Germany, will not adress the fact that parties have been banned in other western european countries, and that the governments of several western european countries have threatened to ban other parties (intimidating them into toeing the line).

Third, you have not comprehended the difference between some elections and ALL elections.  If all parties allowed the particpate agree to toe the line, there is NO need to ban them and the public has the 'choice' so deliciously parodied by Jonathan Swift of 'choosing' between parties whose disagreements are comparatively minor.

Fourth, when parties are aware that advocating a 'politically incorrect' position may result in their being banned, it is quite understandable that they will avoid those positions, even if favored by the electorate (its called intimidation).

So, in conclusion, the threat of banning, couples with tangible examples of the same having been done, is often sufficent to prevent policies from being advocated by parties.
 
Doesn't seem to me to be a particularly difficult concept to comprehend.


But thatīs not fully consistent with your earlier statements. Basically you changed your position from "In much of western europe, elections are 'won' on a similiar basis by banning those who disagree with the idiotology of the 'politically correct'" to "In much of western europe, extremist parties are forced to take a more moderate stance because they may fear getting banned". That way it makes much more sense.

Considering that all three "major" neo-Nazi parties in Germany are far from being "politically correct", I wonder to what extent your theory is plausible. Maybe a immediate short-term effect could be expected, but not much more. Especially the NPD was rather self-confident in the last time.

And personally I would appreciate it that you stop using inappropriate remarks like "You really need to learn something both about language and logic (in this case set theory)", "Apparently you didn't read (or understand) my previous postings", "I realize you have a great deal of difficulty..." or "I know you find this difficult to understand, but...". Thanks.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2004, 01:16:36 PM »

In response to the last post:
I don't believe Old Europe ever advocated that banning parties is good.  He only disputed what he felt was exaggeration in your rhetoric.

Well, in a world that isnīt just black and white it is a difficult issue without a satisfying solution.

I could repeat what I already said in answer to CARLHAYDENīs question about how many bannings are too many: "I have no idea, but it should as close to zero as possible." And even CARLHAYDEN finally admitted that party bans are justified under extreme circumstances (the martial law thing).

Letīs say Iīm very reluctant concerning the bans of parties.
Logged
Middle-aged Europe
Old Europe
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 17,281
Ukraine


« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2007, 05:09:59 AM »


So, America needs an openly gay politician, who opposes Muslim immigration and gets assassinated by an environmental activist?
Logged
Pages: [1]  
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.04 seconds with 11 queries.