The South

[Neinrein]

I registered for this site solely because I came across this thread when looking for news stories about if Obama still hadn't hired a Southerner for his cabinet.


The amount of hatred and vitriol that I saw spewed made me want to call my cousin who is serving in Iraq and tell him to go AWOL because apparently, his fellow countrymen have all sorts of nice things to say about him just because of where he is from


My main point is, i want to set the record straight on some of the obvious trash that I saw posted on here.


First, to the person who said that Alabama and Mississippi were trashholes and then proceeded to say that "we need more Katrinas".....I am from Biloxi, Mississippi. I lost my home in Hurricane Katrina, I saw my neighborhood wiped from the face of the earth, and I have attended funerals for people whose bodies still have not been found. With all due respect, if you honestly believe that, then there is a warm place that you ought to go to. All I'm gonna say about that


To the person who made the comment about how "Maryland can't be Southern because it's Catholic". Maryland actually was a Southern state until about 30 years ago, and it only ceased being southern because of the growth in the Washington DC area which of course, filled those suburbs with a demographic. All you need to know is, Wallace won the 1972 Democratic primary in Maryland. In fact, that's where he was shot as I recall.


And to address your argument, the following cities in the South outside of Louisiana are known for having Catholic pluralities (in many cases, outright majorities) among the white populations:

Corpus Christi, Texas
Beaumont, Texas
Port Arthur, Texas
Orange, Texas
Lake Charles, Louisiana
Lafayette, Louisiana
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Houma, Louisiana
New Orleans, Louisiana
Natchez, Mississippi
Bay St. Louis, Mississippi
Gulfport, Mississippi
Biloxi, Mississippi
Pascagoula, Mississippi
Mobile, Alabama
Pensacola, Florida


In addition to that, I can tell you certainly that Evangelical Christians, or Baptists, as you so casually referred to them do not make up a majority, or even a plurality, among the white population of Charleston, South Carolina, and Savannah, Georgia is well known for having a large Irish Catholic community, and hosts the 2nd largest St. Patrick's Day Parade in the country.


Of the cities in the list, all but one I think celebrate Mardi Gras, which is a French Catholic holiday, and which in most of these cities, serves as the height of the debutante social season.


I personally, am from Biloxi, Mississippi, where the population consists of the following: Vietnamese immigrants who have come to work on the boats, black people, though of major Mississippi cities, Biloxi is by far the whitest. Consists of the descendants of the French and Spanish immigrants that came here during the colonial period of the 1700s, but the majority of Biloxi residents, will trace their ancestors to immigrants who came here about 100 years ago to work in canneries. The Cajuns and the Croatians. And I have descent from both original Biloxi stock, and immigrant cannery stock.

And I'll go ahead and say that Louisiana the state (and Biloxi's culture is more Louisiana than Mississippi), has a Catholic plurality among the white population. Are you honestly going to suggest that Louisiana is not Southern


Before you start stereotyping the South spend time here


Now as for the comment about the South not having industry......Really never have been down here have you. Louisiana is pretty much a one industry state, that industry being petrochemicals. Birmingham was once called the Pittsburgh of the South, and before steel collapsed, Birmingham was one of the most unionized cities in America, with a unionization rate as high as the state of West Virginia. The textile industry employed people all across the region, and when I was a kid, Pascagoula was very much a unionized town. Unions have died there like they have elsewhere, but they still have some pull. But of course, all of our industry collapsed because of industrial non-attainment lists and free trade, no different than the rest of America.

And the most unionized state in the country is geographically a Southern state, that state being West by God Virginia.


As for the remarks of "Republicanism"....also shows you've spent no time down here. Since Reconstruction, the governments of Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas and Alabama have been under Democratic control, and the Democrats currently have a supermajority in the Mississippi House and our next governor will probably be a Democrat, because there is talk of a Mike Moore-Jim Hood super ticket for Gov and Lt. Gov in 2011. I should also point out that right now, we have a Democratic Congressman representing us, like me, he lost his home in the storm.


And if you want to talk about Katrina, if it had hit New York, the response would have been immediate, we had to wait weeks for help because the northerners who ran the government didn't want to help a bunch of Southerners, think about that one


To the person who made the comment about the South taking more money in then it pays out, yeah that's true, totally true. When you are the poorest region of the country and when government money goes to help those in need, it will work out that way. For some reason, I don't think all of the Ivy League richie richs in Connecticut need that money and justice demands they pay more taxes, and if Obama is really serious about helping those in need, the South will be recieving even more in federal funds and paying even less in taxes


What you need to understand about the South is the New Deal philosophy rules. Look at the ideological nature of the Democrats who run the Louisiana legislature. Roosevelt and Truman would be proud. Southerners don't believe in Libertarianism or freedom from the government, in fact, the South is more in favor of big government than any other part of the country, as long as that government respects their culture, and as long as they feel they have a seat at the table. The average Southerner is an economic liberal and a social conservative, and every time at national election time, they are asked to choose economics or values. The state parties don't ask them to make that choice and so the Democrats still dominate in those offices.


The problem we have in this country is that one party is economically liberal, socially libertarian, and one is socially conservative, economically libertarian. The freedom and liberty people used to all be Republicans and the government control people used to all be Democrats, this changed during the culture wars. I feel it needs to go back to that. The shipyard worker in Pascagoula should not be voting Republican, and the Ivy League businessman in Hartford should not be voting Democratic. And all these damn social issues should be left at the state level and let people choose the states they live in. I don't have a problem with gays marrying in Massachusetts and I thought W's gay marriage amendment idea was moronic. At the same time though, I don't want that they can get married in Massachusetts to force us in Mississippi to allow them to marry here.

And if you want to know why Obama won, Obama didn't win because of some big liberal movement in the country. He won because he was the first Democratic candidate in more than a generation (though Clinton partially did this) to not talk about liberal social issues at all. He only talked about the economy and nothing else. Never heard him once say anything about guns, or gays, or abortion out on the trail. It's the economy stupid won the day. McCain lost because he only talked about cultural issues, and without the other side willing to take him up on that front, he looked like a chicken little, and he never had an economic message to fall back on.


I personally think Obama will bring us back to the New Deal style of politics, where it is the government party vs the non-government party, his use of Rick Warren, who is for big government on both the economy and cultural issues, seems to suggest this. Also, the simple fact is, if the moderates gain control of the GOP, and start only talking about Republican economics, their votes are going to fall off in the South so fast, because Southerners don't fundamentally believe in that. They believe that the government has every right to regulate how the economy goes, but also how one lives their lives. But, for Southerners, values will usually win out over economics unless it is desperation time. I'll concede Obama had problems because of race, he lost counties and parishes that Dukakis and Kerry had won.


However, if Obama governs from the center-left economically, and the center-right socially, I can see him winning a majority of Southern states in 2012, because if he does that and the GOP goes with a social moderate, economic conservative, that combination equals Democratic victory in the South, always has.


And finally, Obama does need a Southerner in the cabinet, because every part of the country deserves to be represented, and no, Hillary doesn't count, the lady who spent more time in Jersey doesn't count, and Gates doesnt count. He needs someone from the Deep South in his cabinet, and there are a few he could pick from. Sam Nunn especially.


So please, be respectful towards the South, and don't start shooting off about it unless you know the truth

[Neinrein]

A few more things. If you want to talk about tolerance, all you need to know is, in the 1830s, when a Jewish immigrant came to say New York or Boston, they were treated with disdain and disgust, treated like garbage (same for Irish immigrants too).


If that same Jewish immigrant came South and worked hard.....within a decade, he'd be a highly respected member of Southern society. The North never allowed "Judah Benjamin" to be a military commander.

The Jewish communities in most of the Southern ports are as old as the towns themselves, all high society and all have been much more fairly treated than Jews were in all of the tolerant Northern states. The South has actually elected Jewish congressman in areas where Jews are numerically insignificant, and I've never seen that happen up north, and if you are an Italian, as far as I know, the first Italian governor in the country was our very own Governor Longino, who was the first Mississippi governor of the 20th century.

And for those who, only want to "come south to burn a confederate flag" or who have no use for the Southern culture, please abstain from the following:

Mardi Gras, Popeyes, Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Hyundai, Saturn, Rock and Roll Music, Jazz Music, Zatarains, Abita Beer, Crawfish, Jumbalaya, Grits, Okra, Barbecue, William Faulkner, and I could go on and on. The culture of this country is indebted to the South.

[Neinrein]

And neither of the Bush's are Southerners. Any real Southerner will tell you that they aren't. Just because you move to town doesn't make you one, because if they're counted as Southerners, you'd have to count Hillary too

And to bring up something I left out originally, because someone brought up the Election of 1980. Yeah, Carter lost the South, Carter only won 6 states total. Carter was somewhat of a failure as a President in case anyone forgot


But in most Southern states, Carter's loss margin to Reagan was within a percentage point, and often times, a few thousand votes, and Carter won most of the rural counties, if you dont believe me, look at an election of 1980 county map. What lost him most of the South in that election (and he still held WV and GA) was that voters in the metro areas who had supported him in 1976 turned against him for 1980.

[Neinrein]

If I may ask, what does someone being Jewish have to do with how Southern they are. The antebellum South, unlike the antebellum North, was very welcoming to Jewish immigrants and many Jews did come to the South. For most of the antebellum period, America's largest Jewish community was in guess what, Charleston, South Carolina. All of the major antebellum Southern ports still are home to influential Jewish communities, Jewish communities that in many cases, have been there for more than 200 years.


So, what does being Jewish have to do with being a Southerner or not, because you just attacked a person saying they couldn't be Southern because they were Jewish. Am I not Southern because my grandmother was Croatian

[Neinrein]

The culture of this country is indebted to the South.

Which may explain why we're one of the most backward first world nations.

NO we are not, dude. What are you talking about?

Latin american levels of inequality, horrible race relations(between anglo-saxons and everyone else), massive fundamentalism, high poverty levels, not even civil unions nationally etc. Only Poland is worse.

How many Anglo-Saxon's are in this country anyway. I thought most of them lived in the Northeast, the WASP's after all. Biloxi is Latin and Slavic (with some Vietnamese and Blacks thrown in for fun), so I'm not getting where you're coming from on this one.

[Neinrein]

You don't even live in the South anyway.

Yes, I do.

Haha, ok.  What makes Arlington Southern?  Is it rural?  Do people have accents?  Does everyone wear Sperrys and their sunglasses around their neck?  Is it overwhelmingly Baptist?  Is sweet tea consumed daily by all?  What about fried steak, barbeque, fried chicken, cornfritters, or grits?  Is high school football all anyone cares about?  No, no, no, no, no, no, and no.  So what does make it Southern?  Being in the same state as Southern areas?  So then is Miami Southern?  What about El Paso?  You don't live in the South.

Are you kidding, seriously, are you kidding?  I have never read more stereotypes in my life than I have read in that one statement, and I take it based on that statement that you have never been to the Gulf Coast, because everything from Beaumont to Pensacola is run by Catholics, always has been always will be.


You don't see me opining on northern culture, which I know nothing about so why must you insist on boxing in the South into a narrowminded framework

[Neinrein]

Haha, this is so silly.  But just to clear up two things I noticed from my light skimming, you contradicted yourself (and I'm sure this isn't the only time) when you go on and on about immediately accepting people into your culture yet one post later you deride the Bushes as not real Southerners that have never been accepted as such.  Interesting.  Then there are black people who are still not a part of Southern culture.  The other thing was that the Katrina response was slow because of Blanco.  The federal government is not legally allowed to step in unless the state formally requests federal aid.  Blanco didn't do this for days.  Then there was her decision to abandon hundreds of buses and the entire infrastructure of the state of Louisiana before asking the federal government to drive in and pick people up.  Mississippi's response was fully prepared and they, with the help of the federal government, handled the situation as best they could.  Then there's Florida, whose hurricane response system has always been top notch and fully supported by the federal government when need be.

One more thing.  Let's not forget that horrible day 7 years ago when New York City was hit by something worse than a hurricane.  Is that fixed yet?  No.

They aren't real Southerners, because they are the products of Northern prep schools, they were sent up to New England for boarding school, and they went to Yale. Eastern establishment. Just because they changed latitude didn't mean they changed habits, and black people are a part of Southern culture. That you made the statement that they aren't shows as further proof that you haven't spent a great deal of time down here


And if we're going to talk about Katrina. I'll concede, I didn't vote for Barbour the first time, I voted to re-elect him because of his Katrina response and because his opponent was a fundamentalist Baptist who was talking about cracking down on gambling, and like most people here, that makes me recoil, because gambling has been one of the main industries of here well before the legislature legalized it. The last mayor before Holloway was one of our Croats, and he's in prison right now for complicity in the murder of his law partner, who was a Superior Court judge, and his wife, who was slated to be said mayors primary opposition in the 1989 election. Of course, the official Slovonian line is, was that the couple was killed and the mayor was framed because the woman in question, had she become mayor, would have opposed the legalization of gambling, and the conspiracy goes, MGM had them killed, and then framed it on the mayor.

Not going to defend Blanco, but you have to understand, if I had been told as a bus driver, I am ordered to go into New Orleans 24 hours before a direct strike by a Category 5 or be fired. I would choose be fired. No one realized the severity of that storm till it happened. No one here did. No one evacuated Biloxi for Katrina......a day of my life I'll never forget. We ended up having to flee the home as the water began coming up and it wasn't supposed to come up that far because this house had survived Camille.


And to equate the loss of one skyscraper, while truly tragic, is not comparable to the destruction of multiple cities and towns, and the complete swath of total destruction that existed from the shoreline to a few miles inland from the mouth of the Pearl River to the Harrison/Jackson line. Really unequatable at all. There's a big difference between the loss of a block of territory and a 40 foot storm surge with massive waves on top of them

[Neinrein]

This is stupid, you people are saying you hat the south because we don't believe like you do. That just makes you a bigot.

If you classify a history of sexism, racism, and homophobia as "beliefs" then I feel sorry for you.

That crap occurred all over the place. You're really dense if you believe it only happened in the South. You refused to respond to my argument about California and other non-southern states banning gay marriage. Typical. Just because you repeat an argument full of holes doesn't mean it will become true.

Compare the figures on gay adoption in Arkansas to those on proposition 8. Which state is more bigoted, again?

Arkansas is a thoroughly Democratic state and produced one of the better presidents this country has ever had, certainly his record improves by comparison every day that Bush stays in office. Bush did the same things that LBJ did and was surprised that it did the exact same damage to the economy

[Neinrein]

This is stupid, you people are saying you hat the south because we don't believe like you do. That just makes you a bigot.

If you classify a history of sexism, racism, and homophobia as "beliefs" then I feel sorry for you.

That crap occurred all over the place. You're really dense if you believe it only happened in the South. You refused to respond to my argument about California and other non-southern states banning gay marriage. Typical. Just because you repeat an argument full of holes doesn't mean it will become true.

Compare the figures on gay adoption in Arkansas to those on proposition 8. Which state is more bigoted, again?

Arkansas is a thoroughly Democratic state and produced one of the better presidents this country has ever had, certainly his record improves by comparison every day that Bush stays in office. Bush did the same things that LBJ did and was surprised that it did the exact same damage to the economy

No, you're not going to get away with that. We all know exactly what sort of Democrats live in Arkansas, and who their candidate was in the 1948 Presidential election. And Bush and Johnson were absolutely nothing alike in their fiscal policies.

First, Bush and Johnson absolutely were alike. Both of them presided over large increases of the federal judgement, in Johnsons case, federal programs, in Bush's case, pork, both spent untold sums on quagmire wars, and both cut taxes while increasing federal spending. I would agree with an argument that we should not elect anyone who has held statewide office in Texas to the White House soon (though that doesn't do justice to Lloyd Bentsen, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Ann Richards or all of the decent people they've had)

Second, 1948 Election Results, Arkansas:  Truman 61%, Dewey 21%, Thurmond 18%


Problem with the Democratic Party over the last 40 years is, a bunch of rich Rockefeller Republicans who had no business being in the Democratic Party all suddenly decided to become Democrats. I'm sorry, a guy with a Yale education who lives in a nice neighborhood in Connecticut should not be in the Democratic Party. That's not Mr. Roosevelt's coalition

[Neinrein]

This is stupid, you people are saying you hat the south because we don't believe like you do. That just makes you a bigot.

If you classify a history of sexism, racism, and homophobia as "beliefs" then I feel sorry for you.

That crap occurred all over the place. You're really dense if you believe it only happened in the South. You refused to respond to my argument about California and other non-southern states banning gay marriage. Typical. Just because you repeat an argument full of holes doesn't mean it will become true.

Compare the figures on gay adoption in Arkansas to those on proposition 8. Which state is more bigoted, again?

Arkansas is a thoroughly Democratic state and produced one of the better presidents this country has ever had, certainly his record improves by comparison every day that Bush stays in office. Bush did the same things that LBJ did and was surprised that it did the exact same damage to the economy

No, you're not going to get away with that. We all know exactly what sort of Democrats live in Arkansas, and who their candidate was in the 1968 Presidential election. And Bush and Johnson were absolutely nothing alike in their fiscal policies.



Man, those Arkansans are so tolerant.

I give you credit for editing your post to try and make me look foolish rather than acknowledge your error and then move on with response. Speaks of your gentlemanly character I suppose.

And that you bring up Wallace '68 shows how little you know of Wallace, for one thing, his deep ties to organized labor that he maintained for his entire career within elective politics in Alabama. 1968 was also the year that Rome burned in Chicago due to the demonstrators excesses. Take Wallace off the ballot, Humphrey wins the Wallace states, because whites would have split evenly for the two, and combined with the black vote for Humphrey, this gives Humphrey these states and the election.


Also shows how little you know of Wallace because you assume Wallace was a racist. Anyone who knows the story knows he was an opportunist, the one judge in Alabama who in the 1950s treated black folks with respect and dignity, and who lost in 1958 because he was seen as too soft on segregation. His segregation was all a political stunt. If you look at his economic agenda in Alabama, ripped right from the New Deal, increased the size of government more than any other administration, actually won the black vote in 1966 because all the black school teachers voted for him because he had raised their salaries 3 times.

And Wallace's 72 campaign was not about race at all, it was a combination of mainline social conservatism and New Deal economics, and strikingly, that had been his same platform in 1968

[Neinrein]

First, Bush and Johnson absolutely were alike. Both of them presided over large increases of the federal judgement, in Johnsons case, federal programs, in Bush's case, pork, both spent untold sums on quagmire wars, and both cut taxes while increasing federal spending.

I just love how conservatives want to unload Dubya now so as to make your movement look better. It's the same sort of thing you did after Nixon's failed Presidency, no?

At any rate, any similarities between the two are superficial (and it's awfully hypocritical for any Southern to rail against pork-barrel spending, when that's the only goddamned thing proping up a number of your state economies). Where were Bush's social programs?

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1968, fool.

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Forty years ago, I'd have been a dyed-in-the-wool Republican of the Rockefeller Wing, and I'm not rich. Civil liberties mean a Hell of a lot more to me than the economic conditions of the predominant race. 

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Yes, we understand that Southerners are envious of anyone with a semblance of higher education. But you don't have to screech about your anti-intellectualism every chance you get. It's really a turn-off.

Proud to be a graduate of Tulane, so not sure about what you're getting at with anti-intellectualism. And I have not yet said what party I am, other than to say I voted to re-elect Ronnie Musgrove in 2003 (even with his mistake, was still a damned good governor, did a lot for education) and I voted for Barbour in 2007. I've also voted for Jim Hood, Gene Taylor, actually in this last election, I voted for Gov. Musgrove because I don't think that Pontotoc should have both of the state's Senators, and Wicker breaks the gentleman's agreement the state has had for years to have one senator from the coast or delta, and one from the upstate.


I'll say that I voted for Bill and for W (regret that one terribly). I will say I voted against George Dale, because George Dale only wanted to protect the insurance companies that wanted to keep the coast from rebuilding. I will say that, at least based on the current moves he has made, I have very high hopes for the Obama presidency, he was clearly not who McCain tried to paint him as and while he does need a son of Dixie in the cabinet, he has made very competent selections for cabinet. I guess that's why everyone's on his case, they don't like it when you do a good job, it's why the press always hounded Clinton (never would have hounded him if he had been a kid from NY's upper east side rather than Hot Springs, Arkansas)

[Neinrein]

This is stupid, you people are saying you hat the south because we don't believe like you do. That just makes you a bigot.

If you classify a history of sexism, racism, and homophobia as "beliefs" then I feel sorry for you.

That crap occurred all over the place. You're really dense if you believe it only happened in the South. You refused to respond to my argument about California and other non-southern states banning gay marriage. Typical. Just because you repeat an argument full of holes doesn't mean it will become true.

Compare the figures on gay adoption in Arkansas to those on proposition 8. Which state is more bigoted, again?

Arkansas is a thoroughly Democratic state and produced one of the better presidents this country has ever had, certainly his record improves by comparison every day that Bush stays in office. Bush did the same things that LBJ did and was surprised that it did the exact same damage to the economy

No, you're not going to get away with that. We all know exactly what sort of Democrats live in Arkansas, and who their candidate was in the 1968 Presidential election. And Bush and Johnson were absolutely nothing alike in their fiscal policies.



Man, those Arkansans are so tolerant.

I give you credit for editing your post to try and make me look foolish rather than acknowledge your error and then move on with response. Speaks of your gentlemanly character I suppose.

And that you bring up Wallace '68 shows how little you know of Wallace, for one thing, his deep ties to organized labor that he maintained for his entire career within elective politics in Alabama. 1968 was also the year that Rome burned in Chicago due to the demonstrators excesses. Take Wallace off the ballot, Humphrey wins the Wallace states, because whites would have split evenly for the two, and combined with the black vote for Humphrey, this gives Humphrey these states and the election.


Also shows how little you know of Wallace because you assume Wallace was a racist. Anyone who knows the story knows he was an opportunist, the one judge in Alabama who in the 1950s treated black folks with respect and dignity, and who lost in 1958 because he was seen as too soft on segregation. His segregation was all a political stunt. If you look at his economic agenda in Alabama, ripped right from the New Deal, increased the size of government more than any other administration, actually won the black vote in 1966 because all the black school teachers voted for him because he had raised their salaries 3 times.

And Wallace's 72 campaign was not about race at all, it was a combination of mainline social conservatism and New Deal economics, and strikingly, that had been his same platform in 1968

Wow, we actually have a George Wallace apologist here. Regardless of his true feelings on segregation, in 1968 he was avowed segregationist and would have implemented segregationist policies. It doesnt matter how you feel, it matters what you do. Thats like your boy Dubya saying hes not responsible for the Iraq war as he didnt want to do it, Cheney made him.

Of course the only states he won where the backwards Southern States, no surprise there really.

I'm not a George Wallace apologist, but one thing I learned growing up is that there are at least two sides to everything, and that a true gentleman will be willing to look at everything from all sides. It's the only way to have a healthy debate. Just like the only way to have a good gumbo is just to mix it up all right, with the right amount of roux, right amount of okra, right amount of oysters, right amount of shrimp, so forth and so forth.

[Neinrein]

This is stupid, you people are saying you hat the south because we don't believe like you do. That just makes you a bigot.

If you classify a history of sexism, racism, and homophobia as "beliefs" then I feel sorry for you.

That crap occurred all over the place. You're really dense if you believe it only happened in the South. You refused to respond to my argument about California and other non-southern states banning gay marriage. Typical. Just because you repeat an argument full of holes doesn't mean it will become true.

Compare the figures on gay adoption in Arkansas to those on proposition 8. Which state is more bigoted, again?

Arkansas is a thoroughly Democratic state and produced one of the better presidents this country has ever had, certainly his record improves by comparison every day that Bush stays in office. Bush did the same things that LBJ did and was surprised that it did the exact same damage to the economy

No, you're not going to get away with that. We all know exactly what sort of Democrats live in Arkansas, and who their candidate was in the 1968 Presidential election. And Bush and Johnson were absolutely nothing alike in their fiscal policies.



Man, those Arkansans are so tolerant.

And Wallace's 72 campaign was not about race at all, it was a combination of mainline social conservatism and New Deal economics, and strikingly, that had been his same platform in 1968

''The Wallace campaign aired TV ads with slogans such as "Do you want the black block electing your governor?" and circulated an ad showing a white girl surrounded by seven black boys, with the slogan "Wake Up Alabama! Blacks vow to take over Alabama."

1970 gubernatorial campaign where he had polled second in the first round to the guy that had succeeded him, and who was doing a good job. That's called a political tactic and every academic agrees that the 1970 Alabama gubernatorial was among the dirtiest campaigns of all time.......but Jimmy Carter used a softer version of George Wallace's strategy to beat Carl Sanders in the 1970 Georgia gubernatorial election, including the use of the "bloc vote" phrase.


I'm not defending him, but I'm saying, a lot of black kids in Alabama were able to pull themselves out of poverty because of the community college system he set up, no governor did more for education or for mental health than he did. Alabama actually does rank at the top of mental health services surveys often and that is a legacy of George Wallace, he did that in memory of his wife who cared so much about the issue.

Alabama has never really had good governors though, Mississippi has had two really good ones in the last forty years, Bill Winter and Ray Mabus. I liked Allain because he was Catholic, but, if Allain hadn't of been Catholic, you know, he'd just be one of those so-so governors to me, like Fordice. Still can't understand how that moron got two terms, only beat Ray in '91 because all of the Baptists upstate hated that he legalized gambling, never mind the fact that the state of Mississippi had been collecting revenue off of all the illegal gambling strips on Beach Boulevard for nearly 100 years by then

[Neinrein]

Crown Heights Riots 1992, Bensonhurst beating 1991, Desegregation of Boston Schools 1974-76, The Chicago Council Wars, Los Angeles Race Riots 1992, Cincinnati Race Riots 2000's, 2008 Democratic primaries in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Massachusetts (even with Kennedy power)

I don't think anyone wants to get in an argument about racism by region, especially when Georgia has a black attorney general

[Neinrein]

No. Northern Missouri is not Southern. Neither are Wheeling and El Paso.

Just because it's Hispanic doesn't mean it's not Southern. They are alot of Mexicans in Texas who act like rednecks especially in San Antonio. Now I can't comment on Wheeling or Missouri, but the average white person in El Paso is going to listen to George Strait, have a Texas accent, etc, you have to consider it Southern.
Now, as for the comments people have made in relation to Katrina vs the World Trade center. You know, I have empathy for the victims of 9/11, but what happened then cannot compare to the fact that when you drove around town after the storm, there was no town, there was simply block after block after block of rubble on either side, no street signals, no signs, no nothing except for rubble and the paths cleared by the various agencies. You can say they were equally devastating, but it is intellectually dishonest that 9/11 was worse than Katrina. For the nation, it probably was, in terms of political impact, absolutely. In terms of actual on the ground impact and human suffering, 9/11 simply cannot comnpare to the loss of hundreds of thousands of units of housing stock, the displacement of several hundreds of thousands of people, and a death toll that we can never know but that certain approached 9/11 levels

[Neinrein]

I think we have to come up with a definition for Southern culture.
So what makes a state Southern?

People with a southern accent?
High percentage of african americans?
Whites and blacks with extremely different voting habits?
Large % of Christians?

What?

Southern accent. Something benconstine admittedly doesn't have, and I bet no one else in Arlington has either unless they are a transplant from the actual South.

Southern accent doesn't define one as Southern and what do you call a Southern accent anyway. We talk a different way here than they do in Tupelo and folks in Charleston talk different than say folks from Nashville. I am becoming convinced that only Southerners get to decide what is Southern and that people who do not like in a state that was in someway tied to the Confederacy or Confederate sympathies just shouldn't be talking