What does the Confederate Flag mean to you?

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Option 1, obviously.

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Option 1, I guess, though maybe the last option is more appropriate.  Those that think it is racist and equate it to the swastika are ignorant of the pride that many Southerners take in their history.  To many it is not equated with slavery, but rather with those who died for the Southern cause in the Civil War.  Now I'm not a neo-Confederate like States and I don't fly a Confederate flag, but as a Civil War and history buff I do own one.  I view the flag as purely a historical symbol.

I'm not a Neo confederate at all.

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Oh and sorry States, what I meant was that you have more of a serious interest in the Confederacy than I do, not that you're an anarchist and want to secede again.

Do you do any civil war reenacting?

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Racism.  It is a flag for heritage, but a heritage that thought slavery & racism was fine

To be objective, the U.S. flag would also stand for racism under that logic. After all, the American heritage involves racism, slavery, discrimination against immigrants, and so on; these were not exclusive to the South.

Granted, but the south embraced slavery longer, formed the Confedercy in part due to fears Lincolin would make slavery illegal.  Formed the Jim Crow laws among other things.

I would beg to disagree. California had discriminatory laws against Chinese immigrants, and also the Japanese during WWII. There was plenty of de facto discrimination against those of African descent in the North. The U.S. as a whole caused the death or displacement of millions of Indian tribes. So, on the whole, I would say that prejudice is not something that is in any way exclusive to one particular region.

Yes, you're right.  Northern elitists love to kid themselves into thinking that prejudice, discrimination, etc. has only existed in the south.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  It's a psychological game these people are playing to make themselves feel better.  These things existed in the north and other sections of the country, and continue to this day.

Yes, and it was often far worse in the north as it extended beyond one race. Jews & Irish were quite discriminated against as well in northern states and cities. The largest concentration of Jews in the US in 1860 was the South. And the term "Scotch-Irish" came about out of bigotry, you see wealthy northerners of Irish descent who were here before the potato famine considered the recent immigrants trash and didn't want to be associated with them. Therefore they started calling the poor Scotch-Irish to disassociate themselves from what they considered "trash".

http://jrshelby.com/si/

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Don't forget Joe Johnston was also a very capable individual.  Had Davis not removed him a put in Hood, the Confederates might have been able to hold out long enough to effect the 1864 election.  It was the fall of Atlanta, more than anything else, that convinced the northern public that the war could be won.  But, Davis didn't want Confederate men "retreating" as he called it, and so, he sacked Johnston, and his very well thought out gradual defense plan, and went with Hood... well, I am sure you know the rest.

I still can't fathom why he put John bell Hood in that position. Was it simp,y because he felt Johnston was fortifying instead of attacking? I know Davis hated Johnston as much as he hated Bearegaurd, but why one armed Hood? I guess ego makes people do stupid things very easily.

Civil War talk is never as fun if States isn't in the conversation.

Actually I agree that Davis was a huge reason why the south lost but one must make considerations into other reasons why the south lost the war. North Carolina and Georgia were huge thorns in the side of the south through much of the war. For example lets take North Carolina. At the end of the war union troops made a rather shocking discovery in North Carolina. They found a warehouse which contained thousands of tons of food and many many hundreds of pairs of shirts, pants, underdrawers, etc. It has been figured that one of the main reasons why the south lost was due to a shoddy rail infrastructure more then military incapabilites. If these provisions had been known about by the confederate government and distributed late in the war I'm certain the south would have had the ability to continue on with the war for a few more months. Governor Vance however felt that those supplies were only for N.C. troops and refused to share them with the confederate govt as a result of personal dislike for Davis.

Georgia is pretty much the same situation although in this case what was found was vast caches of weapons from rifles, pikes & ammunition for artillery. Albeit, much of it was destroyed by Sherman and his troops upon their exit of Atlanta, much of those supplies had sat in warehouses since 62-63. Governor Brown of North Carolina also had a huge dislike of Davis and actually called him a tyrant. Gov. Brown was a Whig pre war and actually was a US Senator from 1880-1891. He felt that supplies from Georgia should only go to Georgia troops.

Another failure of Davis was that he took personal vendettas into the government. He hated Joe Johnston with a passion and he was perhaps one of the most capable men to command troops. He meddled to much with the military aspect of the war and I really feel he crippled the south. The only suggestion he made that I agree w/was near the end before the battle of Five Forks he suggested to Lee to break up his army into the mountains of Virginia. Lee said he would never do such a thing. Oh well.

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Imagine if Stonewall Jackson wasn't shot and died shortly after contracting pneumonia during the battle of Chancellorsville. What effect would he have had durring the remainder of the war?

If I remember correctly Jackson didn't contract pneumonia until after he was shot but its really neither here or there.

If they had kept him in the East? Probably not much. Remember, even if the Confederates had one the Gettysburg on the first day, it would not have been the finishing blow that the Confederates would have needed to force a peace on Lincoln. Meade had already drafted comprehensive orders for a Union defense at Pipe Creek, MD. Lee could not have continues to press his attack into PA, because it would have left his communication and supply lines open to Union attack. He would have had to have followed the the Union Army south. Had he attacked the Union possition at Pipe Creek, he probably would have lost at least as many men as he did at Gettysburg.

If Jackson had lived Gettysburg would most likely not have ever happened as G-burg was hatched as a result of the death of Jackson. If Jackson hadn't been wounded at C-ville he most likely would have lead his Corps to a crushing defeat of Federal forces on the banks of the Rappahanock.

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Hey, that's good Virginian.  Seriously.  Robert Bork was on some talking head show a few minutes ago on MSNBC and they had a quote by Bush's SC nominee about michael's "one white glove"   You don't want to know, but my mind was totally in the gutter with that one.  Now I can have a little better association to put with the image.  Thanks.

Speaking of which.

http://www.madblast.com/index.cfm?action=view&id=5367&scid=9683

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Basically the north won because of its superior resources.

As I stated earlier in this thread I would strongly disagree with this assumption. It may have been a contributing cause but certainly not the main reason. I suggest you should read The Life of Billy Yank and then The Life of Johnny Reb by Bell Irvin Wiley.

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It is a symbol of rebellion against the United States of America - a country that I have pledged my allegience to, which both my grandfathers fought to defend in WWII, and which was a safe haven for my grandmother, who was fleeing from the extermination of her people.  I will oppose all sedition and rebelloing against the United State of America.

Flying the Confederate flag is more offensive to me than burning the American flag.  However, because freedom is what defines our nation, I will defend the right of people to do both.

Actually those who founded the confederate government did so trying to protect the constitution as intended by the founders. Lincoln and his goons are the ones who corrupted the constitution and have given us the horrible mess we have today.

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The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

Wow, like the US flag right?

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The discussion seems to have strayed off-topic...since the Confederacy and its flag always have been held together by slavery and segregation as their main rallying cry, it's hard for me to view the flag as anything different than that.

That is a horrible misrepresentation of the truth.  My family has proudly flown the Confederate flag since the end of Reconstruction and they were never slaveholders or segregationists.  My family was one of the first in the South (and I believe the first in North Carolina) to intermarry.  And, guess what, they still fly the flag.  My family was a part of the underground railroad.  And guess what, they still signed up to fight in the war.  My family paid for hired blacks to work on the their farm.  And guess what, they paid them the same wage they paid the whites.

My view is simply this. The Confederate flag represented teh Confederacy. The Confederacy was founded to save slavery (and most inhabitants there voted for a pro-slavery candidate). Southern political leaders using the confederate flag and States Rights rethoric has clearly been mostly concerned with race issues. See Thurmond and Wallace. Now, I know that the actual Civil War is somewhat different and that state loyalties played a big part there (as it did with Lee, for isntance). My point is not that Soutehrners are racist, but that the confederacy was by and large founded on racism.

This is why foreigners have no business meddling in our affairs. They have no basis of fact in which to degrade our country.

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I didn't check the entire thread, but did someone note that the "Battle Flag" (Second National) is not the flag on the Duke's car? The Duke's car has the Naval flag on it.

Check out this site.

http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/csa.htm

All the flags of the Confederacy.

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My extensive study of the history of the issue has led me, without a doubt, to see it as a symbol of racism and hatred.  This is not to say that there are those who are proud of it without seeing it this way, but I feel that they are misguided in being selective in their views of history.

I'd ask for a refund on your history education in that case. Someone ripped you off.

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My extensive study of the history of the issue has led me, without a doubt, to see it as a symbol of racism and hatred.  This is not to say that there are those who are proud of it without seeing it this way, but I feel that they are misguided in being selective in their views of history.

I'd ask for a refund on your history education in that case. Someone ripped you off.

Yes, you're completely correct, StatesRights - in fact that is why you and your fellow Southerners are so fond of the rag: you're not racist and hate-filled at all. 

Indeed.

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Ignorance, racism, bigotry, hatred, slavery, white supremacy, segregation, rednecks, illiteracy, Jim Crow, immorality, gilder, philistinism...

How about treason?

Yep, Lincoln did commit treason.

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It means "please slash my tires" up here.

Your opinions would result the same way down here, thankfully!

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As I've stated, I know the Civil War was not about slavery.

Yes it is.  It is 100% about slavery.  However it is often explained as economics or states rights but those economic issues and states rights issues are DIRECTLY about slavery.  Anyone who says the civil war isn't about slavery is delusional.  The Republican party was founded on the idea of halting slavery.

Actually, through most of the war, slavery was legal in those states (or parts of states) not in rebellion.

That was for strategic reasons to keep the border states (MO, KY, WV, MD, DE) on the Union side. It would't have done much good to take the idealistic approach and have them join the Confederacy.

WVA wasn't a border state. It wasn't even in existence until 1863 and it was created on constitutionally questionable grounds through coercion of the eastern counties of that state.

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Obviously it is a sign of treason, agression, terror, mass slaughter, and racism. 

This thread isn't about the American flag.

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Once again you're erroneously equating the Confederate Flag to the Ku Klux Klan and for what that despicable organization stands for.  BRTD, if you came to the South you would realize that most people who wave the flag aren't people burning crosses.  You think States here is like that?  Of course not.

I burn three crosses a week in effigy of BRTD in my front yard.

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Yes, and it was often far worse in the north as it extended beyond one race. Jews & Irish were quite discriminated against as well in northern states and cities. The largest concentration of Jews in the US in 1860 was the South.

Since when was New York (which had the largest concentration of Jews in the US in 1860) in the south?

Proof? Do you want me to prove your troll ass wrong again?

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You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.jewishmag.com/110mag/civilwar/civilwar.htm

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http://www.stpetetimes.com/News/022501/Perspective/Southern_Jews_in_the_.shtml

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http://www.civilwarhome.com/jewish.htm

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_P._Benjamin

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And WillK, lets see how tolerant the Northern Army was of the Jew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Order_%E2%84%96_11_(1862)

I'm right, you're wrong and that's the end of the story.