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Author Topic: We have a Pope  (Read 7862 times)
The Duke
JohnD.Ford
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,270


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

« on: April 19, 2005, 06:55:30 PM »

Joe Republic,

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

The last Pope had effectively abandoned Just War Theory (flawed as it may be) and become a pacifist for all practical purposes, though he pretended that Just War Theory supported his opposition to both the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars.

I don't mean to bash JPII in death too much, but here's a pretty damning story Christopher Hithcens relays in Slate:

"Finally, if the pope is to have so much credit for the liberation of Eastern Europe, he ought to accept his responsibility for the enslavement of the Middle East. He not only opposed the removal of Saddam Hussein in 2003, but the use of force to get him out of Kuwait in 1991. I have never read any deployment of Augustinian argument, in the latter case, that would not qualify it as a just war. Moreover, the pope made a visit to Damascus not long ago, and sat quietly outside the Grand Mosque while the NixonNow regime greeted him as one who understood that Muslims and Catholics had a common enemy—in the Jews who had killed Christ. (That he may already have been senescent at this point is not an answer: It is a problem, though, for those who believe that he was Christ's vicar on earth.)"
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,270


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2005, 07:24:35 PM »

Joe Republic,

As I have been informed by Phil and Supersoulty, the Pope is only infallible because the Church is infallible, and he is therefore only infallible when speaking on behalf of the Church from the Chair of St. Peter.  As a non-Catholic, I too misunderstood this doctrine.  Apparently, the Pope's words are rarely considered infallible and his infallible statements are only issued on rare occaisions.

The last Pope had effectively abandoned Just War Theory (flawed as it may be) and become a pacifist for all practical purposes, though he pretended that Just War Theory supported his opposition to both the 1991 and 2003 Gulf Wars.

This may be true, but if I chose to listen to Catholic doctrine on the subject of war, I would prefer to listen to the views of the Pope himself than the actual theory as outlined in the various teachings.  Reason being that after all, the Pope is supposed to have the highest understanding of the church's teachings and of God's will.

But the Pope himself would have to admit his own infallibility, and since the Church has tought Just War Theory for about a thousand years now, a Papal statement that undercuts that principle can't be considered infallible since it contradicts previous Church teaching (Which IS infallible).  Since the war in Iraq is not a matter of faith first and foremost, it is not something the Pope is capable of being infallible on.  So no, it doesn't necessarily square with Catholic doctrine that the Pope must be right, ot at least more right, than anyone else on the war.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,270


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2005, 08:56:57 PM »

Prediction:  Benedict XVI will take up the pacifist agenda of Benedict XV and will make Vatican opposition to the War on Terror a central element of his Papacy.  This will create a significan rift between the Church and many of its American adherents.  Most actual church going Catholics support the war, its the non-practicing ones who are mostly against it.  This, combined with continued indifference to the child sex scandal will leave the American church weaker than ever before.

Out on a limb, but the name makes me nervous.
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The Duke
JohnD.Ford
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,270


Political Matrix
E: 0.13, S: -1.23

« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2005, 11:36:37 PM »

I care about the direction of the world Catholic Church because its a potent political force in mobilizing the masses in Latin America and Africa especially for or against certain causes.

I care specifically about the American Church because I don't think I have to be a member to want to see a social institution dear to so many succeed.  I have many Catholic friends to whom the Church is an important part of their lives, and I'd be greatly pained to see the Church they love betray them.
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