Can Jesus be God if he is not all knowing? (user search)
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  Can Jesus be God if he is not all knowing? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Can Jesus be God if he is not all knowing?  (Read 6682 times)
Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.
Nathan
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« on: December 08, 2018, 03:51:44 PM »

Lots of bad takes in this thread. I'll limit myself to responding to three:

1. Zen Buddhism traditionally believed that it was the one true religion just as much as any other proselytic religion does. The transformation of Zen into a philosophical and practical system that is in principle compatible with a number of other religious traditions is a twentieth-century innovation that many Zen Buddhists in East Asia today are unfamiliar with or reject.
2. It's next to impossible to say what is or isn't likely about "the historical Jesus" because Jesus doesn't exist as a full character in any documentary or archeological source other than the various canonical and non-canonical Gospels; historical Jesus scholarship is infamously prone to counter-intuition fetishism and confirmation bias. A historical Jesus scholar once verbally attacked me for pointing out that the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple in Mark doesn't necessarily indicate a late date for Marcan authorship even if we presuppose against the supernatural because religious prophets predict doom all the time even if they're not supernaturally inspired, then pivoted to making the same point herself when we got to the next chapter in our class readings.
3. "[H]alf breed chimera son produced by bestiality" indicates a belief that either God is some sort of wild animal or that humans are. I don't think either of these possibilities reflects well on GIA. Also, the Gospels present Joseph as having initially felt that the situation constituted him being cuckolded before being convinced otherwise by Gabriel, and I think Joseph had much more cause to feel affronted on his own behalf than GIA has to feel affronted on Joseph's behalf.
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Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.
Nathan
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« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2018, 02:35:53 PM »
« Edited: December 09, 2018, 02:39:15 PM by Trounce-'em Theresa »

2. It's next to impossible to say what is or isn't likely about "the historical Jesus" because Jesus doesn't exist as a full character in any documentary or archeological source other than the various canonical and non-canonical Gospels;

Maybe as a completely knowable figure, yes.  But the few "I am" formulations of John's Gospel where Jesus declares his identity with God have no equivalents in the Gospels which came before it.  I take that to be fairly significant. For someone, especially a king of Israel or Israel itself to be declared a "son of God" had conspicuous precedent in the Hebrew Scriptures, and so the early Gospel writers calling Jesus the "son of God," especially accompanied by the added messianic and "Son of Man" attributions, is not that unusual.  But John's very late first-century identification of Jesus with God looks to me pretty novel, and not traceable to any earlier traditions of what Jesus said about himself.

Sure, but the "Synoptic theology early, Johannine theology late" formulation has its detractors even among historical-critical scholars (in fact, I've talked to members of a minority of historical-critical scholars who prefer a significantly earlier date for John's Gospel than do most confessional theologians). I also think that the idea that earlier necessarily equals more accurate is leaned on too heavily in historical-critical work when it comes to parsing out differences between the theology of texts that were written at mostly maybe forty or fifty years apart.

(Personally, I do tend to favor the currently mainstream Mark/Q->Matthew/Luke/Acts->John order for Gospel priority, but I also tend to favor the traditional Christian attributions of Gospel authorship, even though, yeah, they indicate that John wrote his Gospel at a very advanced age.)

This is actually a good example of the fetish for counter-intuitive conclusions that DC was asking for examples of--a lot of today's historical-critical "minority reports" on Gospel priority seem motivated by the desire to SHOCK older generations of historical-critical scholars, which in turn were in some cases motivated by the desire to Own The Fundies back in the bad old days of the Fundamentalist/Modernist split.
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Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.
Nathan
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 01:00:30 AM »

1. Zen Buddhism traditionally believed that it was the one true religion just as much as any other proselytic religion does. The transformation of Zen into a philosophical and practical system that is in principle compatible with a number of other religious traditions is a twentieth-century innovation that many Zen Buddhists in East Asia today are unfamiliar with or reject.

It’s a testament to the dominance of the latter perception of Zen in the West that I don’t even think of it as a proselytizing religion. What’s “popular” Zen Buddhism like, if that’s a subject you care to go into?

I'm unfortunately not as familiar with it as I am with other "popular" Buddhisms such as Pure Land, but I do know that, as with other religious bodies in the Sinosphere, a huge proportion of what goes on in Zen temples is oriented more towards guiding people through life milestones than towards individual spiritual practice for its own sake. I've actually read materials explicitly warning Western practitioners interested in studying Zen at Japanese temples that they'll have to wade through a lot of instruction on the minutiae of parish administration and (especially) funeral ceremonies in addition to (or sometimes even to the exclusion of) instruction on the meditative practices. A Tale for the Time Being by Ruth Ozeki, a Japanese-Canadian Zen priest, is an interesting novel featuring characters who are invested in both the social-cultural-religious and the philosophical-meditative aspects of Zen.
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Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.
Nathan
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« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 05:16:36 PM »

I would pay a lot of money to see muon2 absolutely bitchslap Greatest I Am in an in-person debate, LMAO.

Regards,

RT

So would I. It is harder for theists to run away from arguments, as they mostly do when not in person, whenever morals are being discussed.

I have all who challenge me in real life run away and it is getting boring from being too easy for me.

That fact is likely why the religious hierarchies are crying for decent apologists even as their numbers continue their downward trend.

Good riddance to bad religions.

Regards
DL


People don't run away from debating you for the reasons that you think they do, dude.
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Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.
Nathan
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2018, 09:14:07 PM »

It is highly unlikely that the historical Jesus believed he was God.  So, to me, it's not a problem. 
Good point, and as I've said the idea that he was, doesn't click with me. Why not regard him as you would any other person?

As C.S. Lewis pointed out, if Jesus was like any other person, then He really wasn't as impressive or positive a figure as a lot of non-religious cultural Christians would like Him to have been.
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