The sola scriptura OT church (user search)
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« on: May 07, 2012, 02:07:11 PM »

Of course, then the question becomes which version of the Pentateuch?  The Septuagint that the NT writers largely used?  The Masoretic that many Protestant denominations use because it is seen as more authentic?  The Samaritan?

Granted, the textual differences between the versions are largely minor save for where the Samaritan version calls for the temple to be located.  However, while the Samaritans are an example of a sola scriptura OT church, I doubt you'd find the Five Books of Moses of the Samaritans to be accurate, jmf.  Still, the fact that Jesus and his ministry in ancient Palestine is inclusive of the Samaritans is an example of how these minor quibbles over doctrinal issues were not something he was much concerned with, just as he refused to get drawn into the petty squabbles of the day of the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 06:23:21 PM »

John 4: 19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”  21 Jesus declared, …You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

The traditional translation and interpretation of John 4:22 has two major problems.

The first is while the verb "εἴδω" can be translated as "to know", it can also be translated as "to perceive".  Translating that verb as perceive makes the meaning of the first part of the verse clearer, for the Samaritan temple upon Mount Gezrim had been destroyed in the 2nd century BC.  "You Samaritans worship a temple that has been destroyed, we worship one that still stands."

The remainder of John 4:22 is asserting that salvation comes not from any particular place but comes from the line of Judah (the literal meaning of from the Jews).  That is, salvation comes from Jesus himself.  You'll need to come up with some other quote to convince me that the NT shows that Jesus treated the Samaritan version of the Five Books as inferior to the other versions.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 12:22:46 PM »

Why shouldn't one confront scripture with the same tools of logic and reasoning that would be appropriate for any other text written by men?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 04:41:11 PM »

Why shouldn't one confront scripture with the same tools of logic and reasoning that would be appropriate for any other text written by men?

are you accusing Jesus and Apostles of not using logic and reasoning in their approach to scripture?

No.  I'm accusing you of that.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2012, 10:57:12 AM »

Just to be clear, what I find illogical about your approach to scripture is that you begin with axioms concerning it and never consider whether those axioms are correct or even if they are important.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2012, 07:51:23 PM »

I see the ministry of Jesus as being a bit more universalist than the traditionalists view it Mikado.  The only significant difference between the Samaritans and the Jews was over where the temple was to be placed and who was to be the head priest.  They both worshiped God and both followed the Five Books.  Given that God seems to have done reasonably well these past twenty centuries without a house of his own, one has to wonder if the institution of a singular temple was established for God's purposes or for man's.

In the time of Jesus there was no temple atop Mt. Gerizim.  There was one in Jerusalem.  That Jesus accepted it as his father's house, need not imply that it was his father's only house.  Incidentally, the word usually translated as "high" in Luke 4:5 (and the other synoptic accounts of the devil tempting Jesus) is also translated as "exalted" or "esteemed" in Luke 16:15 (and other NT verses).  While it is highly speculative, might the "high" mountain to which the devil led Jesus been intended to be Mt. Gerizim?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2012, 02:49:59 PM »

Ernest, I don't see how Jesus' rejection of the teachings of the Samaritans can even be called into doubt...

have you come to torture Ernest with logic before the appointed time?

I answered Mikado's points.  If you have a stronger case to make, please make it.  At this time, that Jesus' living ministry was more inclusive of the Samaritans than is generally presumed is an impression rather than a firmly held position of mine.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2012, 08:30:45 PM »

If you have a stronger case to make, please make it. 

No one agrees with your logic except Derek - Derek stated he was in near total agreement with you...and everyone thought Derek's logical skills SUCKED!

Ad hominem instead of logic.  I was hoping for better from you.
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