Public IP Address Amendment [Passed to Regions]

[afleitch]

I think Jedi misunderstood what this does.

Well it does request that the mods agree to releasing I.P addresses. I.P addresses gathered from boards outside Atlasia on this forum should be excluded as that extends the jurisdiction of the game outside this board.

[afleitch]

As said, moderators aren't forced to release any information

This is primarily meant to allow evidence to be used in court if the Attorney General happens to find out about an IP match from a moderator.

Then I oppose the bill.

As a mod, I only gather IP adresses when requested to in order to allow the Forum as a whole to keep track of concerns, sock accounts and trolls. I don't give two hoots about a 'prosecution' in a game.

[afleitch]

I understand that.

But it is a privilege for Mods to have access to IP's. They have nothing to do with a game we play; they are about keeping the Forum secure. Any issues about sock posters should be raised with the Mods and discussed and dealt with there. If we learn of any then we will tell you publically (if they are not banned already). That is all the evidence you need to play the game and have a 'prosecution.'

[afleitch]

I understand that.

But it is a privilege for Mods to have access to IP's. They have nothing to do with a game we play; they are about keeping the Forum secure. Any issues about sock posters should be raised with the Mods and discussed and dealt with there. If we learn of any then we will tell you publically (if they are not banned already). That is all the evidence you need to play the game and have a 'prosecution.'

And all this does, If I am correct, is make sure that once you due tell us publically that they can be used by the game as evidence. From my interpretation this has absolutely nothing to do with any part of that process you just mentioned, if I understand this bill correctly that is.

Well as I said the bill specifically says 'IP adresses' may be a used. Clearly they wont be as a mod is not going to say 'X's IP is 0.1234567' etc publically; they are simply going to say 'We did an IP check and X is a sock' That's what I'm getting at.

[afleitch]

I understand that.

But it is a privilege for Mods to have access to IP's. They have nothing to do with a game we play; they are about keeping the Forum secure. Any issues about sock posters should be raised with the Mods and discussed and dealt with there. If we learn of any then we will tell you publically (if they are not banned already). That is all the evidence you need to play the game and have a 'prosecution.'

And all this does, If I am correct, is make sure that once you due tell us publically that they can be used by the game as evidence. From my interpretation this has absolutely nothing to do with any part of that process you just mentioned, if I understand this bill correctly that is.

Well as I said the bill specifically says 'IP adresses' may be a used. Clearly they wont be as a mod is not going to say 'X's IP is 0.1234567' etc publically; they are simply going to say 'We did an IP check and X is a sock' That's what I'm getting at.

ah mister Moderator, you're forgetting you are also senator and thus can do some "moding" of this here act.

I certainly don't mind doing that But there was no point in doing so until I had explained my objections/ No mod is going (I hope!) to give the court an IP address, so this bill would be useless. Confirmation that an account is a sock ect should suffice. How best to do that needs a little work given that proclamations that 'X is a sock' may take place outside the Fantasy board. The GM could be charged with repeating/confirmation that on here.

[afleitch]

This is all I can think of;

Public IP Address Amendment:

Section 1.

a. Criminal charges brought under the Consolidated Criminal Justice Act may rely upon as evidence, the testimony from a Forum Moderator, or any testimony publically posted on 'The Atlas' board, that a poster may have committed a crime against Atlasia in accordance with Section 1 of the Consolidated Criminal Justice Act

b. This testimony shall be posted publically by the Game Moderator should it concern any citizen of Atlasia.

c. This testimony may be used in criminal trials as evidence without a search warrant.

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The GM gets involved to make what happens outside of the Fantasy forum is made public inside so that our fantasy laws can apply

[afleitch]

Actually on closer inspection the Act already covers this

Section 6: Admissibility of Evidence

The presiding Justice may admit the following as evidence of the crime at his own discretion:

    * 1. The actual statements made on the Atlas Forum itself
    * 2. Screenshots of the statements made.
    * 3. A quotation of the statement in a post by another Atlas Forum user.
    * 4. The testimony of forum users who viewed the statement itself.
    * 5. An admission by the accused in a thread on the Atlas Forum, or in a place viewed or heard by multiple persons, with recordings or testimony attributing to the same.
    * 6. Evidence obtained through investigation of the IP address from which the offence was perpetrated.
    * 7. Evidence given to the Court by the Forum Moderators or the Forum Owner, Dave Leip obtained in their capacity in that position.

The amendment may therefore be surplus to requirement.

[afleitch]

Ultimately any bill should come down to the essential permise 'is it about what you need, or what you want?'

For me it comes down to what is needed. Hence for the purposes of convention what Fritz posted from Peter should be accepted by the courts, but to keep things sweet the GM has to embed posts like these in Atlasia by posting them on our boards. I was opposed to the release of IP's because a) they are collected for the Forum not for a game and b) they would rely on evidence obtained from boards outside the Fantasy Election board.

The amendment I raised is a convoluted way to address this. Though comment from the Judges would be beneficial here

[afleitch]

Ultimately any bill should come down to the essential permise 'is it about what you need, or what you want?'

For me it comes down to what is needed. Hence for the purposes of convention what Fritz posted from Peter should be accepted by the courts, but to keep things sweet the GM has to embed posts like these in Atlasia by posting them on our boards. I was opposed to the release of IP's because a) they are collected for the Forum not for a game and b) they would rely on evidence obtained from boards outside the Fantasy Election board.

The amendment I raised is a convoluted way to address this. Though comment from the Judges would be beneficial here

So, I am suddenly creating stories implicating people in crimes?

Can someone explain what my new duties will be? From what I see, a mod will inform the GM of an IP match privately, which I will then embed in a story, which will lead to the conviction of said individual.

No; thats not what I was getting at. You don't embed anything in a 'story'. You simply report what has been confirmed by a mod by quoting it as a stand alone comment. That way the quote exists inside Atlasia (as opposed to on another board) and can be relied upon by the court if need be.

It's a very round about way of getting this thing passed.

[afleitch]

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If you click the link provided by Peter, you get:

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The account has now been deleted by Dave I believe, meaning that we can no longer access the profile associated with it.

My thoughts as a moderator - I would not be prepared to publically divulge the numerical info of an IP address - it constitutes an act of questionable legality in the real world as it is identifiable information. I am, and remain, very willing to divulge the moderators investigations into the nature of alleged sock accounts.

As an Atlasian, I find the present state of affairs that allows the situation that Franzl describes to be wholly undesirable. I think the Chief Justice does as well, and I find it commendable that he sticks to what he believes the Law calls for in spite of its obvious practical failings.

An Amendment needs to address these concerns - the afleitch proposal is a good start, though I would counsel against specific reference to the Consolidated Criminal Justice Act as it will probably be superceded by another Law at a point in the future, not to mention the fact that there are other criminal statutes on the books that came after the CCJA.
[/quote]

Thank you Peter.

And you are right about the reference to the CCJA.

Therefore with a simple deletion;

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Public IP Address Amendment:

Section 1.

a. Criminal charges may rely upon as evidence, the testimony from a Forum Moderator, or any testimony publically posted on 'The Atlas' board, that a poster may have committed a crime against Atlasia.

b. This testimony shall be posted publically by the Game Moderator should it concern any citizen of Atlasia.

c. This testimony may be used in criminal trials as evidence without a search warrant.

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Probably need tidied up. Changes would be welcome.

[afleitch]

Easily Aye.