North Korea Mega Thread

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The NK regime is far more unstable and risk-taking than Saddam's ever was. NK does have a viable chemical, biological,  and advanced nuclear program. Iraq had at best one or two of those, nuclear was not one of them as we've seen. To ignore NK, even in the slightest, is to be naive to the implications for the region. Japan could rearm, SK could go nuclear, China would be even more brazen if those were to occur, thus dragging the US in even more to deescalate.

If we do go to war against NK, it will be necessary because they would have attacked the US, SK, or Japan and it would be to wipe out future offensive capabilities. Don't act like NK is so innocent in all of this or that everyone that doesn't agree with your view is a neocon.

My fear, which certainly seems to be the fear of a number of others as well, is that the deplorable madman in the White House will launch a punitive/preventative war (crime) on North Korea. Maybe because of what Alex Jones said, or maybe because his brief writer was new and didn't include his name ten times in every paragraph, or maybe because some war- hungry  advisor shows him some pictures of pre-war Korean girls in bikinis.


Yes, if the North Korea actually attacks the US, all bets are off and war becomes a much less deplorable (but still disastrous) endeavor. But there's not some bright line made of glass labeled Do Not Break Unless You Want To Get Nuked. What if the US thinks NK is attacking, but it's just another provocative test? What if we shoot down a North Korean missile that isn't aimed at anyone? What if there's an air or sea encounter or incident?

If I were an enemy of the US, and no friend to any Koreans, it might be tempting to attack a US ship near North Korea and see what happened. Recent events have shown us how vulnerable US warships are to collisions with merchant vessels. Escalation is a tense and tricky business, and there has never been anyone in the White House less suited to handling it than Deranged Donald.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

The annals of idiocy is doing nothing of substance for close the thirty years

Stop right there. Typical right wing nonsense. Ignore the diplomatic success that was wrecked by Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework

And then start frothing about how essential bombing is.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Great statements re NK by Trump at the UN. The UN needs to do "much more" as Trump put it and I agree.

Vacuous stupidity is vacuous stupidity. Putting the foolish and dangerous words, "something must be done!" into even fewer syllables is no accomplishment, save in the annals of idiocy.

The annals of idiocy is doing nothing of substance for close the thirty years

Stop right there. Typical right wing nonsense. Ignore the diplomatic success that was wrecked by Republicans.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework

And then start frothing about how essential bombing is.

Except here's the kicker - I'm not right wing, so feel free to stop with the us vs. them fallacy BS. They have violated the Agreed Framework from the start and are still importing parts and materials as well as finding ways to get around sanctions for both the nuclear program as well as cash for the regime. It cuts both ways. I think Clinton was right in that he wanted to avoid a conflict but he was wrong in that he didn't shut them down completely when he had the chance. Remember this was done in 1994 when the US was the only superpower and we had all the strings available to us with the breakdown of the USSR. NK should have been shut down then but it was allowed to continue its shenanigans under ALL administrations since then, both under Democrats and Republicans.

"shut down" that's a nice euphemism for what, exactly? Starting a war that will result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people? Crashing Asia's economy, and maybe the world's with it? "Allowed" is another nice one. It implies the US government has some sort of divine right to dictate how other nations behave. Sovereignty is a thing. And I think it's a good thing.

Ghost, is it ok to allow a regime to continue when they do things that are illegal under intl norms? We are at the point where substantive action can be taken on the NK issue and people are still defending that regime or dithering on past actions. The time is now to make sure NK can't continue its nuclear programs and to end its epic crimes against humanity via the UN and the US, preferably without a war. The clock continues to tick.

"Is it ok to allow a regime to continue when they do things that are illegal under intl norms?"
Let's see...

Nations other than North Korea that have developed nuclear weapons outside the NPT:
India
Israel
Pakistan
South Africa

Apparently the answer is yes. Yes it is.

Oh, and "international norms" as enforced by the US also say that if Kim does give up his nukes, he's going to be dragged out and executed, along with his family.  Great examples we set with Iraq and Libya.

Also, "international norms" for the US apparently include regularly threatening other nations with nuclear annihilation and aggressive wars (aka. war crimes), especially ones conducted without any UN sanction at all. They include openly spying on everyone on the planet. They include killing hundreds of innocent civilians because we're scared. Like it or not, the US is more of a rogue nation than North Korea is. We're just much richer, and have much bigger sticks.

More euphemisms.  "allow"  "substantive action can be taken" "The time is now" For what, exactly? We're right back around to "something must be done". What!? Nilitary action (nuclear or not) will unleash a crisis the world hasn't seen in decades. And it will risk the largest war since WWII. Either way, NK's bio, chemical, rocket, and nuclear tech will leak out to bad actors around the world. Or we squeeze them until something breaks and we get the same result but can pretend it wasn't our fault. Or we talk, which we can do anyway, at any time.

This is what really makes me angry. There is no actual, rational plan of action other than talking along with economic carrots and sticks. But people on the right (meaning most of the US) keep pretending that their is.

The Kim regime is not nice. It's awful. But there aren't any easy solutions. No magic bullets. The reality is, sometimes you have to deal with people you don't like and who aren't nice, and deal with them fairly. Otherwise you end up with even worse problems down the road. Like we have right now.

My suggestion is that the US participate in reopening six-party talks, stop the threats, and conduct some diplomacy. The short-term goal is a reduction in tension. Medium term goal is to get the NK government to scale back nuclear and ICBM programs (they'll never give them up now). Long term, get their nuclear materials under an IAEA inspection regime, increase the standard of living for North Koreans, get North Korea more connected and open. Eventually, it'll be a functional nation and/or reunify without crippling South Korea.

What better alternatives are you or our Republican government presenting? Right now, it looks like the best the US has on offer is an impatient mix of schoolyard threats and tantrums.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Kim Jong Un has teen sex slaves who feed him caviar, defector claims
https://nypost.com/2017/09/19/kim-jong-un-has-teen-sex-slaves-who-feed-him-caviar-defector-claims/

"The escapee said they would only choose the prettiest girls, who were taught to feed him caviar and massage him.

If they refused, they would “disappear,” she said."

--

Typical and expected. NK kidnaps women to serve as slaves and translators, so to have them as servers and masseuses doesn't surprise me at all.

Reading on in that:

"And she described one occasion when she was forced to watch as a group of 11 musicians accused of making a pornographic video were slaughtered.

Hee Yeon told how she and her classmates were ordered out of their classrooms in the middle of the day by soldiers who took them to a stadium at the city’s Military Academy.

She said the hooded and gagged victims were brought out and tied to the end of anti-aircraft guns in front of some 10,000 spectators.

The escapee then recalled how the guns were fired one by one, saying: “The musicians just disappeared each time the guns were fired into them.

“Their bodies were blown to bits, totally destroyed, blood and bits flying everywhere.”

Afterward, Hee Yeon said tanks moved in and ran over the pieces of the victims’ bodies."

Coming from such a reputable source as the New York Post, too! What's next? Stories of how Kim Jong-Un murders babies?

When contemplating war, beware of babies in incubators
https://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p25s02-cogn.html


Still not a plan. Just even more screaming that something has to be done.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The Crazy Fat Kid will probably kill his UN envoy if he sets foot again in the DPRK.......probably with a rocket.

I'm pretty sure the generals will stop him before it gets that far. Distract him with a rally or some pretty pictures.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/25/we-have-right-to-shoot-down-strategic-us-bombers-even-if-they-are-not-in-north-korean-airspace-nk-foreign-minister-says.html

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

WH downplaying it http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/25/north-korea-no-war-declaration-white-house-243110

Any bets on how long before the Twit-in-Chief does a 180 on that and says something else to escalate the situation?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Is it just me or has the Crazy Fat Kid been toooooooo quiet this week?

He's been busy supporting his fellow white supremacists by whining about NFL players.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Tillerson says the US is in direct communication with NK but still predicates any meaningful talks with them on their denuclearization. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world/asia/us-north-korea-tillerson.html

That will never happen. It all seems last ditch effort to me.

Looks like you were right.



Tillerson has failed to stop the Twit-in-Chief, who is so stupid/demented that he doesn't understand that Korea had three different leaders in the last twenty-five years.

(Republicans, Turmp and his actions are your responbsibility. Both because you voted for him, and because you refuse to remove him even when the evidence of gross mental incapability is staring you in the face.)

Hopefully the generals who are calling the shots in the so-called Trump administration will distract President Spoiled Brat with some pretty pictures or a Trump Is Amazing storybook and prevent war.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump: "Only one thing will work!"

You won't believe how Trump can solve the North Korea problem with this One Simple Trick!

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/917341511754436609?p=v

You have to give President Moron credit. He says policy hasn't worked on North Korea, and he certainly hasn't repeated previous administrations by having one.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Objectively, the theft of the ops plans could be a good thing. It gives the sane military and civilian officials an excellent reason tell President Moron he can't attack North Korea for the immediate future. Hopefully new plans won't be finished until he's out of office.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump should consult with the President of Guam immediately.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Rumors of a launch and/or above ground nuke test for possibly the 18th.

NK rejects diplomacy with the US: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkKZZ3ckbwo

It's hard to blame them for that. I'm reminded of some poet's definition of diplomacy: the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a big rock. Sums up our diplomacy in a nutshell.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

More threats of dire doom from NK in response to military drills by the US and SK.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/10/19/north-korea-threatens-unimaginable-strike-united-states/779097001/

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Implication of the amendment to executive order 13223?

Worth keeping an eye on, but we’ll see... that USA Today article suggested the AF shortage had been ongoing for some time

It's the AF shortage but could also be used in the case of war for all branches. Was talking about this with some retired officers yesterday. The thing is that if war were to occur, it would be a lot of quick and massive strikes using assets in theater and the surge of personnel really wouldn't be necessary unless we invade NK which is a non-starter to China.

So they are going to start a war while ruling out invading the North before it even starts? What if invading the North becomes the best military option to save our troops and/or civilians? This is a huge self-handicap.

Don't worry! Invading Afghanistan back after 9/11 was done with lots of airpower and had hardly any non-local troops on the ground, and look how well that turned out! And that was with Bush and his crew. Imagine the difference with Trump in charge!

<goes and vomits>

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Air Force prepares to put B-52s back on Cold War era constant alert:
http://m.jpost.com/International/US-Air-Force-gears-up-to-put-nuclear-bombers-on-24-hour-alert-508164

They are only doin the preparations, not actually putting them on 24 alert yet, but still troubling. Particularly given President Moron's public statements on nuclear weapons, and how much he wants and would benefit from a major war.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Diplomatic effort on "last legs" http://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/diplomatic-efforts-with-north-korea-on-last-legs-report-1081028163822

This headline, and the linked article, seem disingenuous and misinformative. For diplomacy to 'fail' there would need to be some evidence presented that our government, especially with Trump in office, has any good faith interest in diplomacy to begin with. 'Do what I tell you or I'll shoot' is extortion, not discussion.

If war comes from this, diplomacy will have failed in the same way that negotiations fail when the cops shout 'police!' five seconds before smashing a door and opening fire on anything that moves.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

3 carriers in the region (big strategic step if a strike is ordered) https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/27/north-korea-us-operating-three-carriers-in-the-pacific.html

This is the single most likely sign of war I've seen. Far more ominous than belligerent tweets.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

So....war is going to happen now?

No...

At least not yet anyway.

I give it 10 days at the earliest, unless they have invented teleportation for the military families and non-essential personnel.

Depends on if the White House babysitters can hide The Football better than they hide cell phones.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Tunnel at Punggye-Ri has collasped; reportedly 200 dead. Also, a lot of worry regarding the radiation that can leak from the site.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/north-korean-nuclear-test-site-tunnel-collapse-reportedly-kills-200-2017-10?r=US&IR=T

If their test site has become unuseable, would that not provide an additional incentive to conduct the threatened missile-based test over the Pacific somewhere? Should the North Korean government decide it needs a test, I mean.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Report that NK hacked Daewoo Shipbuilding and got warship blueprints https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/31/north-korea-hacked-daewoo-shipbuilding-took-warship-blueprints-south-korea-lawmaker.html

SK needs to up their cyber game in a big way to prevent this. Second strike for SK failing to protect mil docs.

NK’s hacking abilities are insane. Call me paranoid, but there’s no way they’re not getting outside help.

Bear in mind who their patron is, and how good said patron is at the same thing

That IT security is hard, and that the US government has consistently worked to make online security worse for easier spying has more to do with it. We reap what we sow.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Aggressive rhetoric would be one thing. But Trump has made it clear by his actions that he has no real comprehension of what hes doing. It's a rat pushing buttons to make lights blink and deliver food, only the buttons are connected to weapons that can kill millions of people.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump's new bromance with Xi isn't going to hurt.  China would literally deal harshly with the Crazy Fat Kid if he did a test nuke.

Somehow, I doubt even Trump is going to get us to start testing nuclear weapons again.