Pledge of Allegiance Bill of 2005 (WITHDRAWN)

[Gabu]

To Joe:  Considering that Dave has power over whether this forum and Atlasia exists, I feel that we must at recognize that he is sort of a God-like figure over Atlasia.

Perhaps so, but it doesn't change the fact that actually referring to him as an actual god is pretty stupid.

How are we deifying him?  All we're saying is that we trust him and are under him, all of which is simply true.

Personally, I think that "under Dave" is an acceptable compromise.  It's certainly not a false thing to say.

[Gabu]

It's not a false thing to say, but why should you have to say it?  This Senate is amazingly anti Civil Liberties.  I expect you to introduce legislation making it a crime to deny the Holocaust any time now.

Like it or not, the pledge is a highly entrenched part of both America and, as a consequence, Atlasia, and I doubt you'll find the support here regardless of who's in the Senate to abolish the pledge entirely.  Do you deny that it at least makes the pledge better to replace a statement that is hotly contested with a statement of fact?

[Gabu]

Gabu, you're the one who's always pointing out logical fallacies in people's posts.  Now look at yourself.  The Pledge is a highly entrenched part of Atlasia, OK, so what?

So... we're not going to be able to remove it.  That's what I'm saying.  As I said in my other post, I'm in favor of removing it, but it's just not happening.

Secondly, as "Dave" equals "God" for Atlasian purposes, what exactly are you replacing?  A word that means the same thing?  See, you think it's not a hotly contested fact.  Well I say God exists, and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.  Nobody would allow me to legislate that in the Pledge, no matter how strongly I believe it.  So if someone says "Dave" doesn't exist, and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong, why is his viewpoint harrassed by this new Pledge?

Given that you can meet Dave Leip in real life, sit down, and have a cup of coffee with him if you like, it's quite obvious that he does indeed exist.  You can contest the idea that he exists if you like, but you're not going to find many people on your side.  If you honestly tried to assert that Dave Leip didn't exist, pretty much everyone would think that you were an idiot, or would at least find this assertion rather strange.  Therefore, it is, by definition, not hotly contested, just as it is not hotly contested that gravity exists, or that water is wet.

[Gabu]

Honorable Senators,

When I suggested this bill, I held the view that it would be effectively impossible to convince the Senate and the People to abolish the pledge. Hence, I held that removing "under God" would have to suffice.

Yet, it would appear that the People are indeed in support of the abolition of the pledge. Why, they ask, is a pledge even necessary? Why, they ask, shall the government prescribe what is orthodox in matters of nationalism and opinion? Why, they ask, shall the government enforce nationalism? I am of the same mind as the People on this issue.

Therefore, I humbly request a Senator to introduce the following amendment to the bill:

The pledge of allegiance to the flag of Atlasia is hereby abolished.

Well, given that a surprising plurality support the full abolition of the pledge... I'll introduce Emsworth's amendment.

[Gabu]

Senator Gabu, since there seems to be a misunderstanding about the intent of the "abolition" of the pledge, I request that you disregard the previous amendment and replace it with the following instead:

There shall be no officially sanctioned pledge of allegiance to Atlasia, its flag, or its government.

Sorry, I've been away for the balance of the weekend... okay, I'll introduce this version instead.

[Gabu]

Nay.  According to that poll, that's one of the least wanted options.  Sometimes compromise is a good thing, but I think that in this case it'll only serve to make everyone less happy with the outcome.

[Gabu]

The pledge of allegiance to the flag of Atlasia is hereby abolished.

The question is on the above amendment. All those in favor, say Aye; those opposed, say No.

Maybe you missed it: I retracted that version in favor of the updated version which reads, "There shall be no officially sanctioned pledge of allegiance to Atlasia, its flag, or its government."

[Gabu]

Aye.

[Gabu]

For anyone who hasn't voted yet, it should be noted that we are not voting to put the content of that amendment into law; what we're voting on is essentially simply what we will later vote on to put into law.  Given that the largest group of people who don't want to keep the pledge untouched are those who desire its complete abolition, it seems to me that what we have before us is the most sensible alternative for us to consider.  There's no requirement whatsoever to actually vote for the bill, even if you vote for this amendment.

[Gabu]

Yes, there's not much point in having this bill as it currently stands, given that its current version is the version that almost nobody wants.  I withdraw this bill.

We'll try again when its new version comes up to bat.