Can Jesus be God if he is not all knowing? (user search)
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  Can Jesus be God if he is not all knowing? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Can Jesus be God if he is not all knowing?  (Read 6695 times)
DC Al Fine
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« on: November 15, 2018, 06:25:12 AM »

Psalms 139, 147 and Proverbs 15:3 come to mind.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 08:34:01 AM »

Psalms 139, 147 and Proverbs 15:3 come to mind.

Even in those cases, those are things various individuals say in the Bible to God or about God, and are not actual quotes from God.

Oh I see what you mean.

Why are you privileging direct quotes over the rest of scripture? It seems like splitting hairs given that the entirety of scripture was written down by men. The more relevant question is whether a given text is inspired rather than if specific portions of it are direct God quotes are or not.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 09:00:50 AM »

Psalms 139, 147 and Proverbs 15:3 come to mind.

Even in those cases, those are things various individuals say in the Bible to God or about God, and are not actual quotes from God.

Oh I see what you mean.

Why are you privileging direct quotes over the rest of scripture? It seems like splitting hairs given that the entirety of scripture was written down by men. The more relevant question is whether a given text is inspired rather than if specific portions of it are direct God quotes are or not.

Fair point, one context at a time, I guess.

Ok.

If you are still interested, Isaiah 40 is a direct quote and is generally intepreted as God declaring his omniscience in places albeit not as explicitly as in the Psalms or Epistles.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 06:11:22 PM »

Lots of bad takes in this thread. I'll limit myself to responding to three:

1. Zen Buddhism traditionally believed that it was the one true religion just as much as any other proselytic religion does. The transformation of Zen into a philosophical and practical system that is in principle compatible with a number of other religious traditions is a twentieth-century innovation that many Zen Buddhists in East Asia today are unfamiliar with or reject.
2. It's next to impossible to say what is or isn't likely about "the historical Jesus" because Jesus doesn't exist as a full character in any documentary or archeological source other than the various canonical and non-canonical Gospels; historical Jesus scholarship is infamously prone to counter-intuition fetishism and confirmation bias. A historical Jesus scholar once verbally attacked me for pointing out that the prophecy of the destruction of the Temple in Mark doesn't necessarily indicate a late date for Marcan authorship even if we presuppose against the supernatural because religious prophets predict doom all the time even if they're not supernaturally inspired, then pivoted to making the same point herself when we got to the next chapter in our class readings.
3. "[H]alf breed chimera son produced by bestiality" indicates a belief that either God is some sort of wild animal or that humans are. I don't think either of these possibilities reflects well on GIA. Also, the Gospels present Joseph as having initially felt that the situation constituted him being cuckolded before being convinced otherwise by Gabriel, and I think Joseph had much more cause to feel affronted on his own behalf than GIA has to feel affronted on Joseph's behalf.

Two quick points:

1) I know historical Jesus and Pauline scholarship aren't sciences per se, but they seem to suffer from an incredible lack  of replicability. Using the logic in your Mark example, if we gave Jesus scholars a smattering of early Jehovah's Witnesses literature (which predicted calamity shortly before WWI), they would have to conclude that most of Charles Taze Russell's writings weren't produced until decades after he died... or perhaps they would conclude a Priestly source interpolated them Smiley

2) Can you give some examples of counter intuition fetishism?
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2018, 09:07:59 AM »

Muon and Nathan, please don't feed the troll.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2018, 11:26:55 AM »

If orthodox Protestants believe in Sola Scriptura, why insist on Trinitarianism, which is not biblical?
It is only biblical if you insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible, which the Bible itself does not insist upon, but in fact the opposite is the case, the Bible itself rejects literalism.
So, if you believe the Bible you don't have to take any of it literally which leads to the problem(?) of taking what could be taken metaphorically, metaphorically, and taking literally ethics which lead to being good (which ethics are good and which bad, is a matter of interpretation)

What you are describing isn't an accuate description of Sola Scriptura or conservative Protestant approaches to theology.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2018, 04:44:40 PM »
« Edited: December 22, 2018, 04:48:43 PM by DC Al Fine »

If orthodox Protestants believe in Sola Scriptura, why insist on Trinitarianism, which is not biblical?
It is only biblical if you insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible, which the Bible itself does not insist upon, but in fact the opposite is the case, the Bible itself rejects literalism.
So, if you believe the Bible you don't have to take any of it literally which leads to the problem(?) of taking what could be taken metaphorically, metaphorically, and taking literally ethics which lead to being good (which ethics are good and which bad, is a matter of interpretation)

What you are describing isn't an accuate description of Sola Scriptura or conservative Protestant approaches to theology.

He says while leaving the description he has in mind in his own mind so that no one can refute it.

You win every debate the same way buddy?
... (I don't need to comment on the rest of it, as this is enough)

Regards
DL
True, that has always been his M.O. here.

Wait hold on a second here. That wasn't a nitpicky dismissal. You got some key doctrines of conservative Protestantism wrong there. Your description was a caricature of what the great majority of conservative Protestants actually teach.  Was my post a bit lazy? Perhaps, but in the same vein, it's not unreasonable to expect you to have a reasonably accurate understanding of what you're critiquing, before launching into a detailed response.

Now that being said, here is what I would dispute in your post:

1) Sola scriptura holds that the Bible is the only infallible rule of faith, not the only rule of faith. It is therefore open to appeals to the church fathers, tradition etc, so long as they are not held to be infallible. That is also why the older Protestant denominations have confessions which are used for teaching, appealed to in debate etc.

2) Pretty much every Protestant would insist that the Trinity can be reasoned out from scripture, even if it doesn't explicitly say "God is a triune". Obviously the entire case for the Trinity is way to big to get into in great detail here, but as a simple example, there is a lot of stuff in John's Gospel or Paul's letters that is rather difficult to reconcile with a Judeo-Islamic model of one God in one person.

3) Talking about a literal vs metaphorical Bible doesn't really do Biblical hermeneutics justice given:

a) There are large swathes of the Bible where a literal-metaphorical divide just doesn't work. How would the literal-metaphorical divide work for interpreting Psalm 150 for example?

b) The Bible is an eclectic collection of texts written over centuries. To speak about interpreting the whole collection literally or metaphorically, is a stretch given the range of authors, genres etc.

Given the above I disagree with your assertion that "the Bible itself" as a whole rejects literalism.
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