Pope John Paul II self-flagellated to get closer to Jesus

[12th Doctor]

JSJ,

I agree.  In fact, I think a pretty solid biblical case could be made against self-flagellated, e.g.:

Col 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. "

Okay, well you me it seems obvious that what Paul is condemning there is false humility, but okay.

[12th Doctor]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

In terms of mortification, the hair shirt was cited in Psalm 35:13.

I Corinthians can be taken as referring to it:

Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.  9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,  9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Good call with the hair shirt.  Certainly a very strong form of self-mortification that is practiced in the Bible.  John the Baptist wore hair clothing.

Anyway, I think in this case it is important to note somethings...

First, this is still just a rumor.  Second, even if it is true, he neither did it publicly to win praise for how great he was, nor did he inflict extreme mutilation on himself intended for that goal.  That is vanity.

As for the practice of self-flagellation, I neither endorse it, nor do I see anything wrong with it, so long as it is not done for show or excess.  Submission to God is, in part, elimination of subjugation to the ego.

And of course, BRTD once again proves that he did not read the article before passing judgment, because if he did then he would know that he would not have sounded original for bringing that subject up since it is, indeed, discussed in the article.

[12th Doctor]

JSJ,

I agree.  In fact, I think a pretty solid biblical case could be made against self-flagellated, e.g.:

Col 2:23 "Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. "

Okay, well you me it seems obvious that what Paul is condemning there is false humility, but okay.

Actually, the word "false" does NOT occur in the text, but was added by the NIV translators.  A more literal translation of verse is found in the KJV:

23 “Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.”

and also in the NAB:

23 “While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.”

the NIV use of "false humility" does not mean the person isn't being sincere, rather it is being used as a catch-all phrase and has nothing to do with sincerity, so i think paul is saying that any legalism (which would include harsh treatment of the body) is useless (false) humility.

for example, i think you and I would agree spinning a pickle on your nose before praying is a useless activity.  So, if someone believes that spinning a pickle on their nose brings them closer to obedience to God, that would be "false humility" because it is useless humility, regardless of how sincere the pickle spinner is.

That's what legalism is - a useless humility which attempts to manufacture favor from God, but actually wastes time and takes attention away from God.  That does NOT make humility in itself wrong, for not all humility is useless...it's just that the "false" humility of legalism robs God from getting glory by shifting focus onto self-abuse instead of a focus on Christ.

We have control over our flesh through Christ’s victory over the flesh on the cross, not through us abusing our flesh.  We don’t read about Jesus going around beating on himself, for he called his body the temple of God.   Likewise, Christians are the new temple of God, and we should care for our bodies.

Okay, well your argument is rendered absurd by J.J.'s excellent point regarding the hair clothing.  Hair clothing was used by people who were right with God as an extreme and lasting form of self-mortification.

[12th Doctor]

i don't know much about this subject, but I don't recall any explicit example in the bible of anyone in the faith physically beating his/her own body, unless it was a simply beating of the chest out of anguish.

does anyone know of a biblical example?

In terms of mortification, the hair shirt was cited in Psalm 35:13.

yeah, and John the Baptist wore sackcloth (hair shirt) also, and ate wild honey and locust and was a teetotaler and removed himself from society....but JESUS CHRIST WAS HIS POLAR OPPOSITE.

John the Baptist is not our example.  Jesus Christ is, and Jesus Christ and the Apostles did NOT go around in sackcloth and ashes.

---

I Corinthians can be taken as referring to it:

Every man who strives in the games exercises self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.  9:26 I therefore run like that, as not uncertainly. I fight like that, as not beating the air,  9:27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

There is no sackcloth mentioned in this verse.  In fact, the word “beat” doesn’t even occur here.  I more literal translation would be “take control over my body and bring it into submission”

HAHA... okay, now you have really lost it.  If Jesus is our example, and John is not and they were exact opposites, then is it not the case that John is Anti-Christ, by your reasoning... as are many other prominent religious figures in the OT and NT.

[12th Doctor]

The way I understand it, when you are in pain or discomfort in ANY way, it does not matter how, you offer your pain and suffering up to God. It supposedly helps people get out of Purgatory and into Heaven

Ummm... no.