Belief in the Virgin Birth

[Franzl]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

[Joe Biden 2020]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

Yes, I do!!

[Franzl]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

Yes, I do!!

Is biology not taught in Oklahoma?

[Joe Biden 2020]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

Yes, I do!!

Is biology not taught in Oklahoma?

It is, but we also believe that God can do whatever He wants and is not restrained by science.

[Franzl]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

Yes, I do!!

Is biology not taught in Oklahoma?

It is, but we also believe that God can do whatever He wants and is not restrained by science.

What is science then if it doesn't always apply?

[Joe Biden 2020]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

Yes, I do!!

Is biology not taught in Oklahoma?

It is, but we also believe that God can do whatever He wants and is not restrained by science.

What is science then if it doesn't always apply?

Science is only entact as long as God wants it to be.  If God wanted to do away with science, He could.  Note that was the only virgin birth.

[The Mikado]

Belief or disbelief in the Virgin Birth belongs on the Religion & Philosophy Board, not the Off Topic Board.  Please take up the discussion there.

[Eraserhead]

Nah, we'll take it up here. BushOklahoma, there was no virgin birth. Also, Santa isn't real. Sorry to burst your bubble, big guy, but I want you to know some of this stuff as you begin to step out into the real world. It's for the best.

[useful idiot]

It's no different from any other part of the Bible. There are a thousand other things in there that should be more fantastical to the non-believer...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Virgin births are biologically possible actually. I think there was some indie movie with such a situation, the girl was giving her boyfriend a handjob or something and he sprayed all over her...obvious pretentious "What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic?" to quote TV Tropes deal.

[Derek]

The word for virgin in Hebrew means young woman. Isaiah speaks of a birth from a young woman and for that matter was referring to Cyrus but that's a whole different can of worms. Besides everyone was born of a young woman in those centuries. 20 was old to have a baby and mortality rates among infants were high. The virgin birth prophecy was likely first heard while the Jews were held captive in Babylon. Look up Zarathustra. Go ahead! I dare you. He spoke of 3 virgin births to come and would have lived in Babylon during the exile while the Jews were there. He influenced the Babylonians as they converted to Zoroastrianism. The word used in Isaiah 7:14 is Almah which Hebrew scholars translate as young woman. Want more? The Greek translation of the OT, "The Septuagint," uses the work parthenos to refer to Dinah AFTER SHE WAS RAPED! I watched pastors and scholars debate this topic for years. Did it bring anyone together? No. This is just another example of how religion can tear people apart.

[Derek]

And people actually believe the part about Mary being a virgin?

Yes, I do!!

Is biology not taught in Oklahoma?

It is, but we also believe that God can do whatever He wants and is not restrained by science.

What is science then if it doesn't always apply?

Science is only entact as long as God wants it to be.  If God wanted to do away with science, He could.  Note that was the only virgin birth.

This I do agree with, but if you want to take the Bible literally, are you going to take it literally as a 21st century American or as a Jew living in BCE times? It really does scare me how little is known about ancient Hebrew and Greek. God can avoid science as God is infinite yes, but the Bible does not speak of a virgin birth as we know it today. It had a totally different meaning in Isaiah and even in the first century.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

it's a lot easier to believe than the resurrection, and a lot less important

[Derek]

it's a lot easier to believe than the resurrection, and a lot less important

Yes it's easier to believe that someone gave birth at a young age than someone rising from the dead.

[Dr. Cynic]

Even when I was a christian (Which was until about age 13), I always thought things like the virgin birth was bullsh**t.

C'mon, she was married. You mean to tell me old Joe didn't wanna get some of that? If you believe that, then I'm sorry, it's just stupid.... I bought into a lot of things when it came to religion, but the virgin birth was never one of them, sorry.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

C'mon, she was married. You mean to tell me old Joe didn't wanna get some of that? If you believe that, then I'm sorry, it's just stupid.... I bought into a lot of things when it came to religion, but the virgin birth was never one of them, sorry.

Given Human psychology, the Virgin Birth is a lot more believable than the doctrine that Mary was a perpetual virgin.  However, neither the Virgin Birth nor the Perpetual Virginity of Mary are essential parts of Christian theology.

[Dr. Cynic]

C'mon, she was married. You mean to tell me old Joe didn't wanna get some of that? If you believe that, then I'm sorry, it's just stupid.... I bought into a lot of things when it came to religion, but the virgin birth was never one of them, sorry.

Given Human psychology, the Virgin Birth is a lot more believable than the doctrine that Mary was a perpetual virgin.  However, neither the Virgin Birth nor the Perpetual Virginity of Mary are essential parts of Christian theology.

I wouldn't think so, but I don't see it as believable either way. Also, I've known many ministers and christians who believe in Mary's perpetual virginity.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

her perpetual virginity is not scriptural, but to say the virgin birth is not an essential part of Christian theology...?!  I would think denial of the virgin birth would be a symptom of larger underlying errors.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

For those who believe the "perpetual virgin"...

How would she have other kids, since Jesus was known to have several siblings, many younger than him.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

For those who believe the "perpetual virgin"...

How would she have other kids, since Jesus was known to have several siblings, many younger than him.

well, whether those were his blood brothers, or merely cousins, is argumentative, but the following argument is iron clad:

But, regardless if James and Jesus had the same mother, I do believe Joseph and Mary had sex after the birth of Jesus Christ:

Mat 1:25 "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son."  

Adverbial clauses of time are restrictive across every language, especially when the subjects of the two clauses are not the same.

If Joseph and Mary did NOT have sex after the birth of Jesus, then this is the ONLY case in scripture involving an adverbial clause of time between two clauses having differring subjects where the action in the main clause did not take place after the action mentioned in the adverbial clause of time.

And since I do NOT subscribe to one-off interpretations, I interpret Mat 1:25 just as I do every other adverbial clause of time between two clauses having differring subjects in scripture...which means, Mat 1:25 implies that Mary and Joseph had sex after the birth of Jesus Christ.

Whenever a doctrine forces you to treat a verse differently than you treat every other verse of the bible, there is something wrong with the doctrine.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

her perpetual virginity is not scriptural, but to say the virgin birth is not an essential part of Christian theology...?!  I would think denial of the virgin birth would be a symptom of larger underlying errors.

The essential parts of any theology are "How is man supposed to live?" and "How can man obtain divine grace?"  Those questions are not answered by the nativity narratives and are unaffected by whether Jesus is the literal son of God or a figurative son of God in the same vein as II Samuel 7:14 and which is common to Jewish messianic literature of the time.  The doctrine of the virgin birth does touch upon the canonical status of the 27 books of the New Testament and their inerrancy since it is included in it.  However, inerrancy is only a commonly held Christian belief, not an essential part of being a Christian.

That said, I have no reason to deny the virgin birth, just no reason to believe that it is essential.