Poll: 3/4 Germans favor same-sex marriage rights, Austrians back gay adoption

[Tender Branson]

New "Stern" poll for Germany:

74% support full marriage rights for LGBT people
23% are opposed
  3% undecided

By party voters:

86% support - Green voters
82% support - SPD voters
71% support - FDP voters
70% support - Left voters
64% support - CDU/CSU voters

No word about adoption rights.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/drei-viertel-der-deutschen-sind-laut-umfrage-fuer-homo-ehe-a-885834.html

New "Profil" poll for Austria:

57% favor full adoption rights for LGBT people
35% are opposed
  8% are undecided

No word about gay marriage support, but polls conducted a year ago have shown it in the Mid-60s.

I think there's not much difference between Germany and Austria on that issue. Maybe Austria is slightly more conservative, so you can subtract about 5% from the German support number.

http://www.profil.at/articles/1308/560/353278/adoptionsrecht-umfrage-mehrheit-adoptionsrecht-paare

[DC Al Fine]

Kind of surprised the FDP has lower support for SSM than the SPD. I would've figured that the SPD would have more old working class guys who wouldn't support it.

[Tender Branson]

Kind of surprised the FDP has lower support for SSM than the SPD. I would've figured that the SPD would have more old working class guys who wouldn't support it.

The FDP subsample is just 30-40 people though ...

[ingemann]

Kind of surprised the FDP has lower support for SSM than the SPD. I would've figured that the SPD would have more old working class guys who wouldn't support it.

Most older working class people I know passive support gay marriage, it's not because they are tolerant or anything (many of them can't stand Muslims), but they just don't give a damn about it, as it doesn't affect anuone other than the married couple. Of course the same people are likely to oppose gay adoption as they think a child need a father and a mother.

[Hatman 🍁]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

[Benj]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Common view in Europe, for whatever reason. Americans (and Canadians) tend to see parenthood and the ability to raise children as more of a fundamental right than Europeans do, perhaps because the idea that every "normal" family raises children is more deeply ingrained in American and Canadian culture. That makes the cognitive dissonance of supporting gay marriage but not gay adoption harder.

[Hatman 🍁]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Common view in Europe, for whatever reason. Americans (and Canadians) tend to see parenthood and the ability to raise children as more of a fundamental right than Europeans do, perhaps because the idea that every "normal" family raises children is more deeply ingrained in American and Canadian culture. That makes the cognitive dissonance of supporting gay marriage but not gay adoption harder.

So, are heterosexual couples banned from adopting as well? I don't get it.  Party of marriage equality is family equality.

[Franknburger]

Kind of surprised the FDP has lower support for SSM than the SPD. I would've figured that the SPD would have more old working class guys who wouldn't support it.

SPD is strongly synonymous with protestant, FDP not so, and  opposition  against gay marriage is primarily coming from Catholics. Thinking about it, the FDP should also be a preferred party of small business owners with immigration roots (the pizzeria / döner type), which are apalled by the CDU's anti-immigration rethorics.
A study a few years ago showed the Linke having the oldest elctorate (former GDR elites and 'middle-class' which were too old for political and economic integration into unified Germany), followed by the CDU.

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Germany already has a quite far-reaching "gay partnership' right in place since the late 1990s. It, however, falls short of "full" marriage rights in a few important areas, most notably adoption, joint taxation privilege, and certain aspects related to inheritance, and to representation in case of medical urgencies. As such, the question on "full marriage rights" includes adoption rights for gays, no need to seperately ask about it.
The main issues, however, are full income and inheritance tax privileges, which also bear budgetary implications (might be another issue for comparatively low FDP support). The German Constitutional Court will rule about the income tax status of gay couples in late Spring, and it is widely expected that the current discrimination will be declared unconstitutional. Paragraph 6 of the German constitution obliges the Government to protect and support "marriage and families", and past Constitutional Court rulings, cleverly avoiding any discussion on "marriage", tended to subsume gay couples under "families" instead.

[ingemann]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Because they have nothing to do with each other, a lot of straight couples aren't allow to adopt either, if the state think they can't deliver what the children needs.

[MaxQue]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Because they have nothing to do with each other, a lot of straight couples aren't allow to adopt either, if the state think they can't deliver what the children needs.

Well, in North America, even single persons can adopt in places, so, it's much less strict.

[Benj]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Because they have nothing to do with each other, a lot of straight couples aren't allow to adopt either, if the state think they can't deliver what the children needs.

True, but categorically saying gay couples can't adopt is still problematic and discriminatory. If it only the standards applied to straight couples and individuals were considered, obviously it would be okay even if that blocked most gay couples/individuals from adopting.

[Franknburger]

I probably need to clarify something about the adoption debate in Germany. First, there never has been any restriction to adoption by gay individuals. There is, however, legislation in place to ensure clear parental lineage, which only permits one adoptive father and one adoptive mother per child in question (this legislation applies to everybody, irrespectively of sexual orientation). The 'gay partnership' status that was introduced in the late 1990s included, as explicit exception from this regulation, the right of a homosexual man or woman to adopt the biological child of his/her registered partner.

The case in question that has recently been ruled by the constitutional court related to the question of "successive adoption", i.e. whether a member of a 'gay partnership' should also be allowed to adopt an adopted child of his/ her partner, which the Constitutional Court said should be allowed.

We are talking a minor issue here which only affects a tiny fraction of 'gay partnerships' in Germany. What was making the case so remarkable was the arguing of the court, whereby 'gay partnerships' qualifiy as "families", thereby deserving the same government protection as (straight) "marriages". This has set a precedence for the much more substantial question whether gay partnerships should enjoy the same tax privileges as married (straight) couples, which the Court will decide on in late spring.

[Hatman 🍁]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Because they have nothing to do with each other, a lot of straight couples aren't allow to adopt either, if the state think they can't deliver what the children needs.

Straight couples aren't denied adoption because of their sexual orientation or the gender of their spouse, so this still doesn't make sense to me.

[mubar]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Because they have nothing to do with each other, a lot of straight couples aren't allow to adopt either, if the state think they can't deliver what the children needs.

Straight couples aren't denied adoption because of their sexual orientation or the gender of their spouse, so this still doesn't make sense to me.

Seems he had misinterpreted the issue. This is not about the hardships of being qualified as adoptive parent(s), but about a complete ban of adoptions by gay couples.

In some European countries there has been talk of legalizing same-sex marriage which would be exactly the same as traditional marriage, except no possibility of adoption. It is this blanket ban on adoption for gay couples that people are wondering about. I believe such situation actually exists only in Portugal, which has had same-sex marriage since 2010 but forbids by law all adoptions to same-sex couples, regardless if married or not. Portugal also forbids fertility treatments (IVF) for lesbians and single women, from pretty much the same grounds. It seems the attitude behind this is pretty much that adult gays may do whatever they wish together, even get married, but that they shouldn't have anything to do with children, maybe even not with the own biological children of one spouse.

I have never understood these arguments, but surprisingly many people here seem to have exactly that opinion: it's fine for gays to marry but they shouldn't be able to adopt, it's said. Some of these are actually typical homophobes who claim that every child must have one father and one mother (single parents don't exist in their world), while others are sort of confused crypto-homophobes whose main argument seems to be that children of gay couples will be bullied in school (never mind that this argument logically suggests that hetero couples are worse parents than gays, since presumably it'd be the children from "normal" families doing the expected bullying). Probably the most of the difference between the numbers of supporters of same-sex marriage and supporters of equal adoption rights have these reasons.

Anyway, I fully expect the future same-sex marriage laws in Germany and Austria include equal adoption too, the support has reached such levels that trying to get an 'intermediate' law through first would be pointless.

[Franknburger]

Anyway, I fully expect the future same-sex marriage laws in Germany and Austria include equal adoption too, the support has reached such levels that trying to get an 'intermediate' law through first would be pointless.

The issue in Germany was about a legal dilemma. You have quite reasonable adoption legislation in place that ensures clear parental lineage - maximum one adpotive father and one adoptive mother per child. Without such legislation, there could be all kinds of misappropriation related to inheritance (and inheritance taxation), social safety, parental entitlements, etc. This legislation, however, is, without any intention to do so, implicitly discriminating gay couples.

If the regulation is amended by a "gay couple" privilege, this immediately raises the question whether this would not constitute a discrimination of other groups (e.g. patchwork families), that might legitimately request a similar privilege. When you continue this line of thought (what happens if a patchwork family breaks up, and the next partner requests adoption rights again, etc.), you ultimately come out with an adoption legislation that provides so many loop holes that the original intention of minimising misappropriation is barely upheld.

So, a Constitutional Court ruling was needed to clarify the situation (it would in any case have sooner or later ruled on any new adoption law, so why not have the Court ruling first and then do the reform). Provided the Court ruling includes sufficiently clear guidelines for legislative amendment (I have not read it, but usually their rulings are quite detailed in this respect), Germany will have a new adoption law very soon. In fact, the ruling CDU announced yesterday that they intend to propose a new law before the summer parliamentary break.

[Franknburger]

Some update:

In an interview last Friday, German Minster of Finance Wolfgang Schäuble said in reference to gay marriage: "The CDU must adapt to changing realities if it wants to remain a popular party". As most of the remaining discrimination is taxation-related, this statement is extremely significant. It was immediately encountered by other CDU top officials, including CDU parliamentary whip Bosbach and CSU head Seehofer, stating the party would remain committed to ensuring that marriage remains exclusively an issue between man and woman. This lead the speaker of the "Gay coalition within the CDU / CSU" (yes, it exists) to remarking that Seehofer (who a few years ago left his wife in order to live together with the mother of his illegitimate child) was not in the best position to comment on family values. Tabloid Bild headline "CDU bitch fight over gay marriage".

The CDU is in an obvious dilemma - their electorate is split in two-thirds favouring and one third opposing gay marriage, while the party's lower ranks are strongly against it. Merkel tried to finish the discussion yesterday by pointing to the recent party decision against full gay marriage. Aides, however, stressed that the decision might be reviewed if the Constitutional Court ruled gay couples' tax discrimination unconstitutional (as is widely expected), but there was no need to try to anticipate the ruling. They furthermore added that the CDU is thinking about a full-fledged reform of family tax privileges (as is already part of the SPD's and the Green's election programme), which would render the whole discussion obsolete.

[Background: Married couples are currently entitled to 'joint taxation', meaning that both partners' income is averaged and taxed two times on that base. In case of non-married couples, including 'gay partnerships', each of the partners is taxed separately according to his/ her income, while financial support granted to the partner (in case his/her own income is insufficient) is tax-deductible up to a certain limit (currently around 14,000 €/ year). Because of progressive income tax rates, this leads to lower income tax for those married couples where one partner's income is higher than the other one's, or, in case only one partner is working, when that partner's income exceeds a certain threshold (currently around 55,000 € / year).
The 'joint taxation' privilege has been criticised for quite some times for various reasons - discrimination of unmarried couples ('gay partnerships' and 'patchwork families' alike), not considering children, socially unfair (it privileges higher incomes rather than those along the poverty line), etc. There are various reform proposals circulating, which range from extending the privilege to children (maybe also restricting it to households with children, including single-parent households) to complete abolishment, eventually combined with a substantial increase of the cap on tax deduction for financial support to dependables. Most of these reform proposals would have the side-effect of removing the existing tax discrimination of 'gay partnerships',though their intended focus and outreach is much broader.]

[ingemann]

How can gays get married but not have adoption rights

Because they have nothing to do with each other, a lot of straight couples aren't allow to adopt either, if the state think they can't deliver what the children needs.

Straight couples aren't denied adoption because of their sexual orientation or the gender of their spouse, so this still doesn't make sense to me.

Dude it's not very complex. Some people feel that raising children in same sex family are somehow harmful for the children, so they support limiting the number of children raised in same sex families by not legalise gay adoption. It's similar in thought to why people with a deadly disease aren't allow to adopt children.

..and no i don't care to defend this, I support gay adoption, and this is meant as a explanation of people belief nothing more or less.

[Tender Branson]

New Infratest dimap poll for ARD:

Do you support or oppose marriage equality for same-sex couples ?

[minionofmidas]

There are no FDP supporters left in the country, I see.

[Tender Branson]

There are no FDP supporters left in the country, I see.

Or their sample size is too small, with a MoE of +/-10%.