2018 Gallup Abortion Poll: Dead Heat Between "Pro-Life" and "Pro-Choice"

[Indy Texas]

Or put another way...

In another thread you argued a ten week old fetus is not a person due to their lack of brain activity (or something along those lines). You clearly relied on science to determine the brain activity of a fetus. You did not however rely on science in your claim that a certain level of fetal brain activity is required for personhood. That claim is a question of ethics.

Personhood is not a biological or scientific concept. It is a legal and ethical one.

Fetuses have never been accorded personhood by any society. Religious arguments against abortion rely on the idea that it is going against God's will, not that it is a violation of the fetus's individual rights as a person (which would be a very post-Enlightenment perspective to argue from).

[Badger]

Ah, I should have known.

They really should add a question of these polls answered by those who oppose legal abortion. " what police should a woman who has an illegal abortion face?

A) Fines of up to $5,000
B) up to one year in prison.
C) up to 3 years in prison
D) up to five years in prison
E) up to 10 years in prison
F) up to 20 years or longer in prison."

Follow up question to anyone who answered anything but a comma should prison time be mandatory in such cases.

The real issues the first question. Most so-called pro-life individuals shy away from the concept of actually Prosecuting and imprisoning women for choosing to have an abortion. And yet that is the fundamental philosophical legal and moral issue here. Where is pro-life fanatics tender picture pro-choice supporters as wild hedonists glorifying abortion as a Sacrament and high-fiving each other every time one occurs, the fact is approximately 99 + percent of abortion rights supporters simply don't want women prosecuted for obtaining an abortion, or making it otherwise essentially impossible to obtain for anyone but the upper middle-class or better off.

[7,052,770]

Or put another way...

In another thread you argued a ten week old fetus is not a person due to their lack of brain activity (or something along those lines). You clearly relied on science to determine the brain activity of a fetus. You did not however rely on science in your claim that a certain level of fetal brain activity is required for personhood. That claim is a question of ethics.

Personhood is not a biological or scientific concept. It is a legal and ethical one.

Fetuses have never been accorded personhood by any society. Religious arguments against abortion rely on the idea that it is going against God's will, not that it is a violation of the fetus's individual rights as a person (which would be a very post-Enlightenment perspective to argue from).

Additionally, as long as "Personhood" loses 58-42 in states like Mississippi, it's unlikely to pass much of anywhere.

It had the support of 100% of prominent Republican politicians in the state, with Phil Bryant explicitly stating that "Satan wins" if it fails, and strong support from the Evangelical (though not Mainline or Catholic) ministers, and the voters overwhelmingly rejected it away - it's not like it was some obscure ballot initiative that people weren't aware of or didn't understand.

[Person Man]

The Youth (18-29) continue to be the best on all issues, including abortion:

Pro-choice 56% (Highest of any group)
Pro-life 38%

Legal under any circumstances 37% (Highest of any group)
Legal only under certain circumstances 42%
Illegal in all circumstances 19%

Abortion morally acceptable 51% (Highest of any group)
Abortion morally wrong 45%

Wasn't there a trend in the Bush years where people could have sworn that the youngest adults were pro-life?

Early Obama years, but yeah:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/126581/generational-differences-abortion-narrow.aspx

I have seen some articles citing certain polls claiming that continued through about 2015 and then suddenly reversed itself.  I think that some of that may have to do with Trump's personal unpopularity.

What started the pro-life surge once Obama was first elected? Was it just him becoming less popular?

[Progressive Pessimist]

The Youth (18-29) continue to be the best on all issues, including abortion:

Pro-choice 56% (Highest of any group)
Pro-life 38%

Legal under any circumstances 37% (Highest of any group)
Legal only under certain circumstances 42%
Illegal in all circumstances 19%

Abortion morally acceptable 51% (Highest of any group)
Abortion morally wrong 45%

Wasn't there a trend in the Bush years where people could have sworn that the youngest adults were pro-life?

Early Obama years, but yeah:
https://news.gallup.com/poll/126581/generational-differences-abortion-narrow.aspx

I have seen some articles citing certain polls claiming that continued through about 2015 and then suddenly reversed itself.  I think that some of that may have to do with Drumpf's personal unpopularity.

What started the pro-life surge once Obama was first elected? Was it just him becoming less popular?

Because Democrat = godless baby murderer.

[MarkD]

Unless and until Roe v. Wade gets overturned, public opinion -- our opinion -- about abortion does not matter. When a state legislature makes a law significantly impeding a women's decision to get an abortion, it will get struck down by the federal courts no matter how large of a majority of the people of that state wanted that law to be passed. Again, that's the way things are unless and until Roe gets overturned.

[Co-Chair Bagel23]

Stop the murder, not their body not their choice!

[DC Al Fine]

Or put another way...

In another thread you argued a ten week old fetus is not a person due to their lack of brain activity (or something along those lines). You clearly relied on science to determine the brain activity of a fetus. You did not however rely on science in your claim that a certain level of fetal brain activity is required for personhood. That claim is a question of ethics.

Personhood is not a biological or scientific concept. It is a legal and ethical one.

Fetuses have never been accorded personhood by any society. Religious arguments against abortion rely on the idea that it is going against God's will, not that it is a violation of the fetus's individual rights as a person (which would be a very post-Enlightenment perspective to argue from).

That is an incomplete account of the conservative Christian perspective. You omit the why in why abortion is against God's will. .

[136or142]

Or put another way...

In another thread you argued a ten week old fetus is not a person due to their lack of brain activity (or something along those lines). You clearly relied on science to determine the brain activity of a fetus. You did not however rely on science in your claim that a certain level of fetal brain activity is required for personhood. That claim is a question of ethics.

Personhood is not a biological or scientific concept. It is a legal and ethical one.

Fetuses have never been accorded personhood by any society. Religious arguments against abortion rely on the idea that it is going against God's will, not that it is a violation of the fetus's individual rights as a person (which would be a very post-Enlightenment perspective to argue from).

That is an incomplete account of the conservative Christian perspective. You omit the why in why abortion is against God's will. .

According to some interpretations of Scripture.

[DC Al Fine]

Ah, I should have known.

They really should add a question of these polls answered by those who oppose legal abortion. " what police should a woman who has an illegal abortion face?

A) Fines of up to $5,000
B) up to one year in prison.
C) up to 3 years in prison
D) up to five years in prison
E) up to 10 years in prison
F) up to 20 years or longer in prison."

Follow up question to anyone who answered anything but a comma should prison time be mandatory in such cases.

The real issues the first question. Most so-called pro-life individuals shy away from the concept of actually Prosecuting and imprisoning women for choosing to have an abortion. And yet that is the fundamental philosophical legal and moral issue here. Where is pro-life fanatics tender picture pro-choice supporters as wild hedonists glorifying abortion as a Sacrament and high-fiving each other every time one occurs, the fact is approximately 99 + percent of abortion rights supporters simply don't want women prosecuted for obtaining an abortion, or making it otherwise essentially impossible to obtain for anyone but the upper middle-class or better off.

Badger, your poll of hypothetical abortion punishments omits a rather important actor in an abortion; the abortionist. There's a huge spectrum of pro-life opinion that can be summarized as "throw the book at the abortionist but be relatively merciful to the woman".

Moreover it's disingenuous to say that pro-lifers have to favour punishing women who have abortions severely to avoid hypocrisy, given how common making exceptions in punishment is in our judicial history.

I'm far more sympathetic to say a college student who's boyfriend took off, than the abortionist who profits from the murder of said college student's baby.

[DC Al Fine]

Or put another way...

In another thread you argued a ten week old fetus is not a person due to their lack of brain activity (or something along those lines). You clearly relied on science to determine the brain activity of a fetus. You did not however rely on science in your claim that a certain level of fetal brain activity is required for personhood. That claim is a question of ethics.

Personhood is not a biological or scientific concept. It is a legal and ethical one.

Fetuses have never been accorded personhood by any society. Religious arguments against abortion rely on the idea that it is going against God's will, not that it is a violation of the fetus's individual rights as a person (which would be a very post-Enlightenment perspective to argue from).

That is an incomplete account of the conservative Christian perspective. You omit the why in why abortion is against God's will. .

According to some interpretations of Scripture.

That's step one, keep going.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

DC, some pro-choicers want to put us in boxes based off the stereotypical ways they think we think.
I don't think those pro-choicers generally really understand our thought processes.

[136or142]

Or put another way...

In another thread you argued a ten week old fetus is not a person due to their lack of brain activity (or something along those lines). You clearly relied on science to determine the brain activity of a fetus. You did not however rely on science in your claim that a certain level of fetal brain activity is required for personhood. That claim is a question of ethics.

Personhood is not a biological or scientific concept. It is a legal and ethical one.

Fetuses have never been accorded personhood by any society. Religious arguments against abortion rely on the idea that it is going against God's will, not that it is a violation of the fetus's individual rights as a person (which would be a very post-Enlightenment perspective to argue from).

That is an incomplete account of the conservative Christian perspective. You omit the why in why abortion is against God's will. .

According to some interpretations of Scripture.

That's step one, keep going.

Everything dies (baby) that's a fact
but maybe everything that dies someday comes back

[DC Al Fine]

DC, some pro-choicers want to put us in boxes based off the stereotypical ways they think we think.
I don't think those pro-choicers generally really understand our thought processes.

Sure, but that's not all of them, so the argument is still worth making.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

DC, some pro-choicers want to put us in boxes based off the stereotypical ways they think we think.
I don't think those pro-choicers generally really understand our thought processes.

Sure, but that's not all of them, so the argument is still worth making.

Not disagreeing!
Engaging with those minority of especially vocal pro-choicers can even be stimulating, because an issue on the level on the abortion is pretty much certain to be debated in some setting. So it can be a dry run.

[junior chįmp]

Most Americans dont actually care about abortion....its an issue your forced to care about because both sides endlessly talk about it and you adopt the issues your political side talks about.

[Badger]

Ah, I should have known.

They really should add a question of these polls answered by those who oppose legal abortion. " what police should a woman who has an illegal abortion face?

A) Fines of up to $5,000
B) up to one year in prison.
C) up to 3 years in prison
D) up to five years in prison
E) up to 10 years in prison
F) up to 20 years or longer in prison."

Follow up question to anyone who answered anything but a comma should prison time be mandatory in such cases.

The real issues the first question. Most so-called pro-life individuals shy away from the concept of actually Prosecuting and imprisoning women for choosing to have an abortion. And yet that is the fundamental philosophical legal and moral issue here. Where is pro-life fanatics tender picture pro-choice supporters as wild hedonists glorifying abortion as a Sacrament and high-fiving each other every time one occurs, the fact is approximately 99 + percent of abortion rights supporters simply don't want women prosecuted for obtaining an abortion, or making it otherwise essentially impossible to obtain for anyone but the upper middle-class or better off.

Badger, your poll of hypothetical abortion punishments omits a rather important actor in an abortion; the abortionist. There's a huge spectrum of pro-life opinion that can be summarized as "throw the book at the abortionist but be relatively merciful to the woman".

Moreover it's disingenuous to say that pro-lifers have to favour punishing women who have abortions severely to avoid hypocrisy, given how common making exceptions in punishment is in our judicial history.

I'm far more sympathetic to say a college student who's boyfriend took off, than the abortionist who profits from the murder of said college student's baby.

That's incomplete at best. It is law school 101 complicity instruction that a woman would be just as guilty for aiding and abetting an abortion by arranging the operation with the actual medical care provider. While it is theoretical at best that Allah might be drafted to give the mother complete immunity only prosecute those third parties involved in the abortion, I sincerely doubt any state that would ever pass in any abortion statute if row were overturned would include any such exclusion. Can you name one that might? Seriously?

Even if theoretically so, remember a couple things here. I guaran f****** tee you that there will be more than a few states that make no such exemption for the mother. I would Hazard a guess probably a majority or at least near majority of any states that ban abortion upon reversal of Roe.

Even that, how do you grasp or deal with a legal system where the mother is not prosecuted, but the boyfriend or parent or friend who drives them to the abortion clinic is? That's not a hypothetical brain-twister. I guarantee you that will come in Amy and every situation such a fact pattern arises.

So yeah. My fundamental Point remains intact. Pro-lifers need to wrap their head around that there are going to be a lot of women going to prison for having an abortion if Roe versus Wade is overturned and they have their ways. And if they can't accept that they're moral and ethical cowards.

[Person Man]

Ah, I should have known.

They really should add a question of these polls answered by those who oppose legal abortion. " what police should a woman who has an illegal abortion face?

A) Fines of up to $5,000
B) up to one year in prison.
C) up to 3 years in prison
D) up to five years in prison
E) up to 10 years in prison
F) up to 20 years or longer in prison."

Follow up question to anyone who answered anything but a comma should prison time be mandatory in such cases.

The real issues the first question. Most so-called pro-life individuals shy away from the concept of actually Prosecuting and imprisoning women for choosing to have an abortion. And yet that is the fundamental philosophical legal and moral issue here. Where is pro-life fanatics tender picture pro-choice supporters as wild hedonists glorifying abortion as a Sacrament and high-fiving each other every time one occurs, the fact is approximately 99 + percent of abortion rights supporters simply don't want women prosecuted for obtaining an abortion, or making it otherwise essentially impossible to obtain for anyone but the upper middle-class or better off.

Badger, your poll of hypothetical abortion punishments omits a rather important actor in an abortion; the abortionist. There's a huge spectrum of pro-life opinion that can be summarized as "throw the book at the abortionist but be relatively merciful to the woman".

Moreover it's disingenuous to say that pro-lifers have to favour punishing women who have abortions severely to avoid hypocrisy, given how common making exceptions in punishment is in our judicial history.

I'm far more sympathetic to say a college student who's boyfriend took off, than the abortionist who profits from the murder of said college student's baby.

That's incomplete at best. It is law school 101 complicity instruction that a woman would be just as guilty for aiding and abetting an abortion by arranging the operation with the actual medical care provider. While it is theoretical at best that Allah might be drafted to give the mother complete immunity only prosecute those third parties involved in the abortion, I sincerely doubt any state that would ever pass in any abortion statute if row were overturned would include any such exclusion. Can you name one that might? Seriously?

Even if theoretically so, remember a couple things here. I guaran f****** tee you that there will be more than a few states that make no such exemption for the mother. I would Hazard a guess probably a majority or at least near majority of any states that ban abortion upon reversal of Roe.

Even that, how do you grasp or deal with a legal system where the mother is not prosecuted, but the boyfriend or parent or friend who drives them to the abortion clinic is? That's not a hypothetical brain-twister. I guarantee you that will come in Amy and every situation such a fact pattern arises.

So yeah. My fundamental Point remains intact. Pro-lifers need to wrap their head around that there are going to be a lot of women going to prison for having an abortion if Roe versus Wade is overturned and they have their ways. And if they can't accept that they're moral and ethical cowards.

Worst case scenario, there is a whole new wave of mass  incarceration with no increase in successful  reproduction while any cuts in abortion are only attributed to undereporting.

And like I said, if there is the issue of personal responsibility in why to make abortion illegal, it would imply that the father should be liable for the well being of their child and therefore should be found guilty of accomplishing in abortion unless he can prove he tried to stop it.