Praying to the saints

[Bono]

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2009/07/praying-to-saints.html

 Praying to the saints

One of the problems with praying to the saints is that you’re praying to saints who don’t believe in praying to saints. You see, there are no Catholic saints in heaven. All the heavenly saints are Protestant.

This doesn’t mean no Catholics ever make it to heaven. But once they reach heaven, they realize the error of their ways and begin to memorize the Westminster Shorter Catechism.

You see, heaven is, among other things, a seminary. A Protestant seminary. Christians often arrive in heaven with certain erroneous beliefs. And heaven is the perfect corrective for their lingering theological errors.

So there’s no point praying to the saints–since the saints disapprove of prayers to the saints. Even if they could hear you, they wouldn’t answer you. It’s contrary to their theology.

For example, to keep his inbox manageable, St. Jude has a spam filter to divert all messages with a terrestrial IP address to a junk mailbox.

[12th Doctor]

Sadly, I don't think you are trying to be ironic.

As you well know, because you have been told, the problem with praying to saints is that the Catholic Church does not endorse that practice... at least not in the sense of prayer to God.  "Pray to" is usually based on lack of a better term, or misconception.

Why don't you try actually posting something, again, rather than just posting other people's thoughts?  You were a real asset when you actually engaged in debate.

[12th Doctor]

So, why aren't you going to challenge me on this issue again?  I would say that it is because you know better, because I've told you what the real belief on this issue is, and each time you have nothing left to say except "I don't believe that" with nothing to back it up.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

As you well know, because you have been told, the problem with praying to saints is that the Catholic Church does not endorse that practice... at least not in the sense of prayer to God.  "Pray to" is usually based on lack of a better term, or misconception.

But you do attempt to communicate with those who have moved beyond this world, correct?  What's more, you believe that someone like the Virgin Mary can hear the simultaneous prayers of millions of Catholics spread across the globe, correct?

And setting aside the biblical command not to communicate with the dead, why doesn’t the New Testament give examples of this practice?  After all, saints like Stephen were killed decades before the ending of the historical record of the New Testament, so why doesn’t the New Testament cite examples of earth bound believers attempting to communicate with Stephen after he was stoned to death?

[12th Doctor]

As you well know, because you have been told, the problem with praying to saints is that the Catholic Church does not endorse that practice... at least not in the sense of prayer to God.  "Pray to" is usually based on lack of a better term, or misconception.

But you do attempt to communicate with those who have moved beyond this world, correct?  What's more, you believe that someone like the Virgin Mary can hear the simultaneous prayers of millions of Catholics spread across the globe, correct?

And setting aside the biblical command not to communicate with the dead, why doesn’t the New Testament give examples of this practice?  After all, saints like Stephen were killed decades before the ending of the historical record of the New Testament, so why doesn’t the New Testament cite examples of earth bound believers attempting to communicate with Stephen after he was stoned to death?

There is no biblical prohibition against intercessory prayer.  Nor is there a biblical prohibition against referencing the dead, speaking to the dead, etc.  The biblical prohibition was against a very specific practice which was attempting the channel the dead, command, or in other ways summon the dead.  Which is a very different thing.  They can only be seen as the same if you want it.

This ignores the fact, of course, that no one dies if they believe in Christ.  Thus, making your point moot anyway.  The Bible clearly tells us to pray for one another, why does that change because your body has gone cold?  The Bible clearly tells us of the Communion of Saints, even if not in those words.  Which, BTW, there are plenty of things the Bible never explicitly says... so what?  But then we have gone back and forth on this point before and firmly established that you have no appreciation for reality.

Moreover, your attempted disdain for the notion that "Mary can here millions at once" just goes to prove how narrow minded your notions of the afterlife really are.

[John Dibble]

You see, there are no CatholicProtestant saints in heaven. All the heavenly saints are ProtestantCatholic.

This doesn’t mean no Catholics ever make it to heaven. But once they reach heaven, they realize the error of their ways and begin to memorize the Westminster Shorter Catechism.

You see, heaven is, among other things, a seminary. A ProtestantCatholic seminary. Christians often arrive in heaven with certain erroneous beliefs. And heaven is the perfect corrective for their lingering theological errors.

Not that I believe any of the above changes I made, but the argument is just as substantial as the original - in other words, it isn't at all substantial.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

There is no biblical prohibition against intercessory prayer.  Nor is there a biblical prohibition against referencing the dead, speaking to the dead, etc.  The biblical prohibition was against a very specific practice which was attempting the channel the dead, command, or in other ways summon the dead.  Which is a very different thing.  They can only be seen as the same if you want it.

Well, the bible doesn’t prohibit me from spinning a pickle on my nose each time before I pray, but I think such a legalistic and unnecessary practice would take away from the power of the gospel.

When the bible covers a great amount of history...and when the bible REPEATEDLY give examples of the living requesting the living to pray from them, yet has ZERO examples of the living asking people in heaven for prayer...and when there is ZERO examples of a godly human consulting with the people in heaven...and when the bible repeatedly makes statements like "Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?" (Isa 8:19)...I tend to believe is it a useless practice.

---

This ignores the fact, of course, that no one dies if they believe in Christ.  Thus, making your point moot anyway.

doesn't ignore that fact at all.  Rather it questions if there is an appropriate communication channel open betten people in heaven and people on earth.

---

The Bible clearly tells us to pray for one another, why does that change because your body has gone cold?

not sure if you realize it or not, but the commands of God are only relevant if your body is warm.

---

  The Bible clearly tells us of the Communion of Saints, even if not in those words.  Which, BTW, there are plenty of things the Bible never explicitly says... so what?

well, how about finding where the bible simply beats around the bush on the issue?  because I haven't found anything that remotely comes close.

---

 But then we have gone back and forth on this point before and firmly established that you have no appreciation for reality.

yet you are the one who implied the current commands of God extend beyond the grave.


---

Moreover, your attempted disdain for the notion that "Mary can here millions at once" just goes to prove how narrow minded your notions of the afterlife really are.

Are you saying you believe one becomes omnipresent after his/her spirit leaves the body, kinda like Christ became omnipresent once he ascended back into heaven?

[Bono]

You see, there are no CatholicProtestant saints in heaven. All the heavenly saints are ProtestantCatholic.

This doesn’t mean no Catholics ever make it to heaven. But once they reach heaven, they realize the error of their ways and begin to memorize the Westminster Shorter Catechism.

You see, heaven is, among other things, a seminary. A ProtestantCatholic seminary. Christians often arrive in heaven with certain erroneous beliefs. And heaven is the perfect corrective for their lingering theological errors.

Not that I believe any of the above changes I made, but the argument is just as substantial as the original - in other words, it isn't at all substantial.

That would be because this isn't an argument, it's a lighthearted humorous ditty.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Supersoulty,

I don't have enough aspirin to debate this topic.  I'll leave it in your hands.

[12th Doctor]

Supersoulty,

I don't have enough aspirin to debate this topic.  I'll leave it in your hands.

Well, as for right now, I am in a bit of a bind about responding anyway, because I don't have any of my materials with me.