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Author Topic: Venezuela  (Read 13138 times)
WMS
Junior Chimp
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« on: March 03, 2004, 09:40:57 PM »

I didn't see any topics on this, and am very curious what people on this forum think about it...especially the left-leaning ones...

Chavez Foes Say Will Step Up Venezuela Vote Fight
Wed Mar 3, 2004 03:30 PM ET

By Pascal Fletcher
CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's opposition said on Wednesday it would intensify anti-government protests that have shaken the oil-rich nation to increase pressure on President Hugo Chavez to submit to a recall vote.

But the government said its opponents were failing in efforts to destabilize the country and oust Chavez.

The capital, Caracas, and other cities were generally quiet on Wednesday after five days of intense but scattered clashes between opposition protesters and troops in which at least six people were shot to death and dozens injured.

"Things are getting back to normal. It shows that this attempted insurrection has failed," Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said.

Opposition leaders said they planned larger street protests, starting on Thursday, to press electoral authorities to reconsider a ruling on Tuesday ordering the reconfirmation of more than 1 million disputed pro-referendum signatures.

Foes who accuse the left-wing Chavez of ruling like a dictator say he is manipulating electoral officials to block their bid for a referendum against him. He says the referendum petition is riddled with fraud.

"Our protest, which has been an explosion of indignation so far, is going to be better organized," said Jesus Torrealba of the Democratic Coordinator opposition coalition.

Venezuela's National Electoral Council said on Tuesday it had only validated 1.8 million pro-referendum signatures, short of the 2.4 million needed to trigger a vote this year. The opposition insists it handed in 3.4 million signatures.

International observers are trying to broker a compromise over the signature reconfirmations. Torrealba said the opposition was participating in the dialogue.

The violence has shut some businesses and schools but has not hit the strategic oil industry in Venezuela, the world's fifth-largest crude exporter and a top U.S. supplier.

Daily scenes of protesters setting up burning barricades have raised fears the country risks a repeat of the political mayhem that briefly topped Chavez in a 2002 coup and disrupted oil exports more than a year ago.  

CONFUSED KILLINGS
Most of the recent deaths occurred in confused gunfights, often at night. The worst flash points are wealthy and middle-class neighborhoods, where anti-Chavez feeling is strongest.

The government, which says troops have responded to attacks by opposition gunmen, has vowed to use the military to crack down against what it calls "terrorist pockets."

It says the opposition is trying to fan the riots to overthrow Chavez, in the same way Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide was forced from power.

Chavez, a maverick populist who still commands strong support among some of Venezuela's poor, says wealthy business elites backed by the U.S. government are trying to topple him.

Washington, which has sharply criticized Chavez for befriending Cuba's communist president, Fidel Castro, dismisses the accusations as anti-U.S. bluster.

A U.S. senator said in Washington on Wednesday there was concern Chavez was trying to block the constitutional right of Venezuelans to seek a recall vote.

"I think that is unfortunate, (that) it is dangerous and it has to be dealt with," said Sen. Norm Coleman, a Minnesota Republican who heads the Western Hemisphere subcommittee of the powerful Senate Foreign Relations Committee. (Additional reporting by Pablo Bachelet in Washington).

Đ Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.


Personally, this is an example of outright undemocratic fraud and intimidation, but I notice that there isn't nearly the criticism of this coming from the left that there is over Aristide. Maybe it's the same situation as with Fidel Castro: scream about how the United States is responsible for everything that goes wrong and throw some pennies at the poor, and watch the lefty classes, ESPECIALLY the European lefties, fall over themselves in defense of you...bah!
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2004, 05:32:47 AM »

I don't like Chavez
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opebo
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2004, 11:48:19 AM »

The CIA should've assassinated Chavez years ago.  When oh when will we have a proper CIA again?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2004, 11:48:23 AM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad
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opebo
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2004, 12:06:04 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2004, 02:27:01 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.
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WMS
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2004, 11:53:37 PM »

Good responses by all!

Sadly, Stratfor's sources say the Bush Administration isn't going to do anything as long as Venezuelan oil keeps flowing...a rather shortsighted view by the Bushies, in my opinion. Would any American want to have Castro in control of anything important to the U.S.? And in a 'truth is stranger than fiction' moment, the only person who seems at all concerned with this is Alcee Hastings, who has sponsored a House resolution condemning Chavez and his regime: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c108:1:./temp/~c108Z2tGt4::

ALCEE HASTINGS? Condemning a leftist regime? Eh?

I can't believe the Reps aren't picking up on this one...

P.S. Stratfor is a private international intelligence company based out of Austin, TX. They're very good...and expensive as well! And I would put them as slightly-right-leaning realpolitique types, so this is not some screed from the left...Smiley
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opebo
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2004, 01:25:33 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.
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dunn
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« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2004, 02:46:59 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.

really? toy compare investing in some of the finest european country to unvesting in a fasciat country?
c'mon, you know better then that
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Gustaf
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2004, 03:15:57 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
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dunn
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2004, 03:22:23 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
I wrote the same and then thought the same- why arguing over that....
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Gustaf
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2004, 03:24:31 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
I wrote the same and then thought the same- why arguing over that....

Yeah, I think Opebo's fascist tendencies has brought him over the edge... *shaking head in dismay...* Wink
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dunn
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2004, 03:26:16 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
I wrote the same and then thought the same- why arguing over that....

Yeah, I think Opebo's fascist tendencies has brought him over the edge... *shaking head in dismay...* Wink

he is not fascist, no, just a neo-conservative
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Gustaf
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2004, 03:30:19 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
I wrote the same and then thought the same- why arguing over that....

Yeah, I think Opebo's fascist tendencies has brought him over the edge... *shaking head in dismay...* Wink

he is not fascist, no, just a neo-conservative

He isn't. Neo-Conservatives believe in a moral foreign policy, don't they?
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dunn
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2004, 03:33:42 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
I wrote the same and then thought the same- why arguing over that....

Yeah, I think Opebo's fascist tendencies has brought him over the edge... *shaking head in dismay...* Wink

he is not fascist, no, just a neo-conservative

He isn't. Neo-Conservatives believe in a moral foreign policy, don't they?

I geuss....well, I hate to label him a fascist...ultra-neo-con?
Smiley
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Gustaf
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2004, 05:48:26 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

They're all a bit dangerous, but give me a Pinochet over a Chavez any day.


Oh, come on, it's not like anyone would invest there anyway. I certainly wouldn't want to run a company in a fascist country. Too hazardous.

No more hazardous than in a socialist democracy.


Ehhh...yes, very much so. Look at the investments that have been made in European countries and compare with them fascist nations, like Pinochet. I'd rather live in a country where I knew that part of my income was gonna get taxed than in a country where my life might be taken for some reason, or where civil war could break out, or...I don't even know why I'm arguing my point, it's self-evident.
I wrote the same and then thought the same- why arguing over that....

Yeah, I think Opebo's fascist tendencies has brought him over the edge... *shaking head in dismay...* Wink

he is not fascist, no, just a neo-conservative

He isn't. Neo-Conservatives believe in a moral foreign policy, don't they?

I geuss....well, I hate to label him a fascist...ultra-neo-con?
Smiley

He's a lib-fascist. Wink
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dunn
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2004, 05:49:26 PM »

I geuss...


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opebo
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2004, 12:48:48 PM »

Guys, fascism is to me pretty much the same as democratic socialism - basically in either the individual has no rights.  I'm just saying I don't care whether its 51% of the population that's victimizing me, or one dictator.  Actually between the two I'd say the dictator might be slightly easier to deal with.  

I think one's investments were perfecty safe under Franco or Pinochet.. not so under many elected governments in Western Europe.  But one's money is safest of all in the USA - because of anti-democratic aspects of the political system, like the constitution, or the lack of voter participation, or the two party system, or private political donations.

I don't see any reason a constitutional Republic in which Capital has a large influence and some people are relatively disenfranchised has any resemblance to Fascism or dictature.  Its more of a responsible oligarchy.  I just want the governmental system that is most Liberal, and I don't think pure democracy is it.
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Gustaf
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2004, 04:21:47 PM »

Guys, fascism is to me pretty much the same as democratic socialism - basically in either the individual has no rights.  I'm just saying I don't care whether its 51% of the population that's victimizing me, or one dictator.  Actually between the two I'd say the dictator might be slightly easier to deal with.  

I think one's investments were perfecty safe under Franco or Pinochet.. not so under many elected governments in Western Europe.  But one's money is safest of all in the USA - because of anti-democratic aspects of the political system, like the constitution, or the lack of voter participation, or the two party system, or private political donations.

I don't see any reason a constitutional Republic in which Capital has a large influence and some people are relatively disenfranchised has any resemblance to Fascism or dictature.  Its more of a responsible oligarchy.  I just want the governmental system that is most Liberal, and I don't think pure democracy is it.

A Liberal Democracy, or a constitutional democracy is perfectly fine.

Fascism involves resentment of weakness and disrespect for individuals. I'd say you're more of a fascist-lib then a libertarian one, and I honestly can't think of a better word than that right now, even though I apologize if you find it offensive.

And fascism has very little to do with democratic socialism, other than the belief in a strong state. And I would never invest in a fascist dictatorship. Compare how rich fascist dictatorships and how much foreign investment they've recieved with that of Western left-leaning demcoracies, like Sweden or Germany.
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dunn
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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2004, 05:53:23 PM »

Guys, fascism is to me pretty much the same as democratic socialism - basically in either the individual has no rights.  I'm just saying I don't care whether its 51% of the population that's victimizing me, or one dictator.  Actually between the two I'd say the dictator might be slightly easier to deal with.  

I think one's investments were perfecty safe under Franco or Pinochet.. not so under many elected governments in Western Europe.  But one's money is safest of all in the USA - because of anti-democratic aspects of the political system, like the constitution, or the lack of voter participation, or the two party system, or private political donations.

I don't see any reason a constitutional Republic in which Capital has a large influence and some people are relatively disenfranchised has any resemblance to Fascism or dictature.  Its more of a responsible oligarchy.  I just want the governmental system that is most Liberal, and I don't think pure democracy is it.

A Liberal Democracy, or a constitutional democracy is perfectly fine.

Fascism involves resentment of weakness and disrespect for individuals. I'd say you're more of a fascist-lib then a libertarian one, and I honestly can't think of a better word than that right now, even though I apologize if you find it offensive.

And fascism has very little to do with democratic socialism, other than the belief in a strong state. And I would never invest in a fascist dictatorship. Compare how rich fascist dictatorships and how much foreign investment they've recieved with that of Western left-leaning demcoracies, like Sweden or Germany.
he is fascist Gustaf/ nife you still try
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YoMartin
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« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2004, 12:36:14 PM »

Well, it looks like Iīm the only latinamerican in the room...

Chavez is not like Pinochet. He was democratically elected, and Pinochet wasnīt. Yes, there are certain authoritarian tendencies in his government (which, by the way, I would definitely oppose if I was Venezuelan), but nothing compared to the brutal dictatorship (3000 missing people, tortured and killed) that was Pinochetīs regime. There is freedom of speech (in fact, most TV channels oppose Chavez very strongly) and of association, which, of course, didnīt exist at all during Pinochetīs rule.

Of course, Chavezī economic ideas are absurd, and his style ressembles old populist semi-authoritarian governments of the region. But thatīs no reason for a coup. You canīt just follow the rules when the government does what you want it to do. Someone said the CIA should have killed him... With the same logic, any secret service in the world would be authorised to kill any presidente, whether his name is Chavez, Bush or Blair... Then you ask why so many people in the world just donīt like you... Hey, youīre even alienating someone here who did like you...
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YoMartin
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2004, 12:38:38 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

A continent reduced to one sentence... very profound analysis...
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Gustaf
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2004, 04:00:56 PM »

Well, Latin American politics...I guess they're all crooks, or at least that's very likely... Sad

A continent reduced to one sentence... very profound analysis...

No not very profound, it was an intentional generalization that I believe holds true, as a generalization. Not to say that politicians all over the world aren't crooks as well, of course. But if you want a more detailed and profound discussion, I am willing to participate.
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YoMartin
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« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2004, 06:13:00 PM »

That would be an interesting discussion. For example, Iīm sure you need to ask for more "favours" to "special interests" to be elected to congress in the US than in most latinamerican countries. There are several former latinamerican presidents in prison, while in europe most of them have immunity -at least in office. That not to speak about some neo-patrimonialistic regimes in Asia.

But, still, this is not an issue that I really care about. Max Weberīs Politik als Beruf showed 85 years ago what it takes to be in politics, everywhere and everytime. Iīm not much of a moral crusader. What worries me a bit is the unchallenged assumption that the US has the right to replace presidents according to its desires... Iīm not really sure you would have let that go so easily if they were talking about removing european PMs and not about third world presidents...
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YoMartin
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2004, 06:14:57 PM »

But maybe if Bush decided to remove SAP you would agree... Smiley
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