Northeast Assembly Thread

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm offering this amendment:

xv) The Assembly shall have the power to override the Governor's veto.  If the Assembly passes legislation previously vetoed by the Governor by a more than two-thirds majority vote, it becomes law without the Governor's signature.

This is almost the same, but didn't take into account the "turnout" objection, which I consider to make sense. Could I ask Rep Cinyc which version he prefers ?

The main reason I oppose turn out objections are because they allow for a filibuster of sorts.

First of all, we need to find a compromise, all the more so that's a constitutionnal amendment. Secondly, my turnout restriction is absolutely reasonable, and in normal times allows to override vetos with a 3-1 majority.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Ok, that's fine with me.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Okay.  It may be redundant, but redundancy is okay, IMHO, to avoid confusion: Can we add a line to the amendment stating that override votes of exactly two-thirds (like that 4-2 situation) will be decided by the Lt. Governor?

Seconded. Just add that a vote of exactly two thirds in favor shall be considered as a tie.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I hold to the statute of tie of a 4-2 situtation.

Should we put that proposal to a vote?

If necessary, yes.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Bump.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Aye

[Antonio the Sixth]

Fellow Representatives,

We are certainly at a determinating point of Atlasian History, and while it's late enough to see what will be Atlasia if we do nothing, it still isn't too late to do something. But this "something" shall be done now, now or never.
Some people, coming from the right as well as the left, used to the Atlasian political system and very proud to consider themselves as "bosses", have slightly built obscure systems of realtionships with other people, in order to control the game more and more. The same process that led to the birth of a mafia in so many countries is now happening in Atlasia. When this process started, I wasn't even here, but at the time people couldn't realize the danger it was going to represent. Now, these big coalitions are able to recruit dozens of users, who will vote for the candidate one man wants to be elected.
You can tell me that what I'm saying is purely democratic, that in fact nobody can't win without a clear and real popular support, that the actions of these interest groups aren't so relevant. Senator RowanBrandon proudly proved us the contrary. We now know that someone, someone who was twice candidate to the presidency, considered himself powerful enough to say "I will ensure that ____ will be elected". This man is still here, still a respected member of the second largest party. But the point is that he's not the only one. A former President recently admitted to have used "some practices" in order to influentiate election results.
Now, here is the point. Rowan was condemned for telling people the truth. There are laws in Atlasia to punish people who reveal a fraud, and there is no law to punish people who practice fraud. That's why we need one, and soon. At this point of the game, a strong majority of users can still revolt and say "We don't want this kind of Atlasia !". In some moths, maybe one year, zombie voters will be more numerous than real voters, and we'll all be powerless. Elections will just be races for the one who gathers the most zombies, and people will lose all sort of interest for the game. That's why someone needs to do the first step, and I've decided to be this one.
Before concluding, I'd like to make a precision of what is a "zombie voter", since some people seem to take advantage of the legitimate indignation of Atlasian people to attack anyone for being a zombie. Someone who is recruited by an older Atlasian isn't necessarily a zombie. I'm sure some of you were recruited for a particular election, and then decided to involve in Atlasian politcs. I am in this case. The only thing that matters is what people do after being recruited. If you just vote as the person told to do, and then absolutely don't care of what happens in Atlasia, then you're a zombies. All those who act so deserve nothing but our contempt, since they are self-consenting pawns. It's only this category of people that needs to be excluded, and not the newbies, who to the contrary can bring a lot to Atlasia.
Now, I'd like to respond to the objections that have been formulated recently. First of all, saying that we need to focus on problems affecting the "average Atlasian" is populism. The first duty of a legislator is to protect its democracy and ensure it will not die. If we don't, we're either cowards or corrupts. Now the main argument pointed out is that these practices are normal in any demoracy and shall be tolerated. We could say it sometimes ago, when zombie voting was a marginal practice. That's not the case anymore. Just imagine if, in the USA, half of the voters were entirely controlled by their partie's political machine, never looking at the news, not caring about the reality, not even knowing who is the guy they are voting for... Just imagine half of the voters were recruited by an influent member of the Dem or the GOP and are ready to do whatever he tells them to do. Wouldn't you do something ?
A last clarification : As I mentioned, this bill shall be considered as a first step of a long and difficult democratic process. It's not, properly speaking, a Bil, but just a declaration of intent. All that is written here hasn't any effective power, meaning that Reps will still be allowed to do whatever they want. This is a solemn delcaration stating that, in the battle that will soon oppose true democrats to pawns and puppetmasters, the Northeast sides with the democracy. Some of you told me that they would like us to go farther, and propose a real bill. I will answer that this issue is a regional government's issue, in which the only power of regions is speaking their minds. Clearly speaking, voting a bill against zombie voting in the NE will be twice unconstitutional, for both the NE and the Atlasian consititution. Only a federal amendment may deal with this issue, and that's why this declaration enjoins the Senate to pass one soon.
We are at a tipping point, fellow Reps., and now the future of Atlasia depends to you. Not all of you, but each of you, at the moment when you will cast your vote in favor or in opposition to this declaration. The future will judge us, and your next vote will certainly contribute to determinate this judgement.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Thank you, Antonio.

I reiterate my concern about the last paragraph of your bill.  Not everyone who votes is going to be able to meaningfully participate on the Atlas Fantasy Elections boards.   How are we to differentiate between the non-participating posters and zombies?  Someone named Torie - one of the most respected posters on the Atlas Forum - a zombie because he hadn't posted the Altas Fantasy Elections forums recently.  That makes no sense, and the last paragraph seems over-inclusive.

To the contrary, I tried to make it as precise and catious as possible. Only a poster who never takes part in Atlasia shall be considered as a zombie, which Torie obviously isn't. The text of tthis "bill" doesn't say anything else.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Again, you have your own discretion for that. Nobody will force you to resign and nobody will decide who is or not a zombie.

[Antonio the Sixth]

While I understand and respect the intent of the legislation, I can't see myself supporting it in any form.  Not only is it far too ambiguous, it's just not realistic.  "Mafias" as you put it have always existed in Atlasia and will continue to exist as long as Atlasia does.  Sure, we can go ahead and say we don't like it, but the odds are half the people voting yes will have been involved in some tactics deemed inappropriate by this legislation.  I cannot tell you how many times I was recruited to vote by Atlasians from every party while I was inactive for the last year.  And when every vote counts for so much, the potential for corruption increases exponentially.  It's the way it works here and vocalizing our opposition to it would be one of the most vacuous efforts in Northeast history.

So, let's make nothing because this would be useless anyways ?
Either we try to solve something, or at least to claim our oppositon, or we quietly assist as spectator to the game's takeover. I don't want to be of those who do nothing just because they think it will be useless. The only question you should ask yourself is "Is it right ?" and not "Is it useful" ?

And BTW, I shall reject Dr. Cinyc's Amendment, which I consider will empty the whole declaration.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Without the amendment, I cannot support it. It's just not a realistic expectation, even if it passes this body, to think that the Senate would pass something along those lines. I don't know what it would do. It's so ambiguous. I like your intent, just not this particular initiative.

As much as I would like to see something done here... It just can't happen with this one, my friend.

Will you still keep your Amendment on the Floor? if you do, then we'll have to vote on it.

That's probably the right thing to do.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Nay

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't support your Amendment, Hamilton, since it is useless and likely unconstitutionnal. I think most of my fellow Reps think like me.
Can we open a final vote on this ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't support your Amendment, Hamilton, since it is useless and likely unconstitutionnal. I think most of my fellow Reps think like me.

No, see. Your legislation here is useless. My amendment creates a policy that attempts to relieve the burdens of inactive voters. Without my provision, this legislation is hollow and pointless.

"Inactive voters" are not the problem. The problem is not who doesn't vote, but who votes even though he doesn't care at all of Atlasia. Your idea doesn't solve anything, solves a problem that isn't one, and is just a pretext.
And you perfectly know all that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't support your Amendment, Hamilton, since it is useless and likely unconstitutionnal. I think most of my fellow Reps think like me.

No, see. Your legislation here is useless. My amendment creates a policy that attempts to relieve the burdens of inactive voters. Without my provision, this legislation is hollow and pointless.

"Inactive voters" are not the problem. The problem is not who doesn't vote, but who votes even though he doesn't care at all of Atlasia. Your idea doesn't solve anything, solves a problem that isn't one, and is just a pretext.
And you perfectly know all that.

I don't get how you could be so concerned with this and still remain in the JCP. If you want to take a stand on this, you need to be the change you seek.

This is not the right thread to start again a personal controversy as you are used to. I would answer very easily to this but we represent the Northeast and now need to vote on a text, as specified in the SOAP.

Are the Governor, the President, the CJO or the Speaker around here ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Aye, though it's quite weak.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Fellow Representatives,

The power for people to control the Amendment proposals is an essential element of our constitution, and the goal of this Amendment is absolutely not to harm this principle.
Now, the establishment of an elected Assembly, added with the adoption of a bad Amendment concerning this issue, made the current Amending procedure particularly long, complicated, and difficult. That's why I am proposing this Amendment. Today, to pass an Amendment, we first need to reach a 2/3th majority, then the approval of governor. But after that, we still need to wait for 4 months, and the next gubernatorial election, to make it finally so. And the only way for an Amendment to go though all this is to get an absolute majority of all the registered voters, which is far from being easy... Concretely, it is almost impossible to modify our constitution without a quasi-unanimous approval, and that's not fair. It's important that for Amendments proposed to be consensual and moderate, but an Amendment should not fail only because of the lack of concern of voters.
To the contrary, with the system I propose, if a strong minority of citizens refuse an Amendment and mobilize themselves, they still can repeal it. But the refusal is only made a posteriori, with a possibility of seeing how it works before rejecting it. To say it simply, this Amendment is as democratic as the preceding, but more efficient.

I'm sure we can pass it and therefore definitely put an end to this series of constitutionnal reforms in order to make the system work better.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have no problem allowing for a vote of the people on Constitutional Amendments more frequently - either with the Assembly elections or once a month - or even lowering the ratification standards a bit.  I do have a problem with Constitutional Amendments becoming law without a vote of the people.  The Constitution ought not to be changed without a vote of the people.  If the proposed amendment passes, the Assembly could in theory cut the people out by passing an amendment removing the ability for the people to protest.

I admit that I probably neglected this problem (though the risk of such thing happening is very low), and would have no problem with a friendly Amendment modifying it. Here are my two greatest concerns :
- Removing any turnout requirement, which is terribly unfair and favors immobilism.
- Making votes on the Amendments occur, say, not more than one month after it passed in the Assembly.

If these two things will be guaranteed, I shall accept anything.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Mr. Speaker

I hear by resign my office as Northeastern Representative, effective immediately. Due to my lack of interest in the office, combined with my attentions largely focusing on outside interests, mostly schooling this was an easy decision for me to make.

Good and Good Luck in the days ahead.

Rocky

Well, you took the right decision. According to the constitution, you should already have been ousted.

With that in mind, I plan on announcing someone to take the seat first thing Monday morning. Please contact me if you are intersted, those who have already contacted me dont worry, I have your names already.

If he didn't already do, I'd like to suggest NewDealDem. Since Rocky was a JCPer, and that without him I'm now the only one, this will mantain the current balance.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I  had no time to re-write it myself, but this is still better than the current situation.

Aye

[Antonio the Sixth]

This will rim the voters over and remove another element of democracy from our system. In the interests of the people of the Northeast, and in my first vote, I am therefore going to have to say:

NAY.

It might not go so well if you try to channel the people in your every vote, particularly when you haven't even been elected.

Disraeli is a joke. "OMG EVIL FREDUM HATERZ OMG !!!!!" is the only argument he can provide.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm too bothered thes times to make a speech. This bill has been created by former Rep Kalwejt and I just introduced it to keep it valid after his resignation.

Anyways, considering that conservatives have an absolute majority here I guess this bill has no chance to pass...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Sorry, mate, but recent events totally demoralized me. Nowadays, facts and logical reasonments don't matter anymore.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, this is the least important part of the bill, so in exchange to the promise for you to vote in favor of the amended bill I may support it.
Petty politics...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, this is the least important part of the bill, so in exchange to the promise for you to vote in favor of the amended bill I may support it.
Petty politics...

Deal.

Great.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Accepted as friendly.
Very good job, BTW.