Northeast Assembly Thread
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Author Topic: Northeast Assembly Thread  (Read 377392 times)
Smid
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« Reply #700 on: November 16, 2009, 06:00:28 PM »

Nay.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #701 on: November 16, 2009, 06:03:57 PM »

This will rim the voters over and remove another element of democracy from our system. In the interests of the people of the Northeast, and in my first vote, I am therefore going to have to say:

NAY.
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Хahar 🤔
Xahar
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« Reply #702 on: November 16, 2009, 06:48:43 PM »

This will rim the voters over and remove another element of democracy from our system. In the interests of the people of the Northeast, and in my first vote, I am therefore going to have to say:

NAY.

It might not go so well if you try to channel the people in your every vote, particularly when you haven't even been elected.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #703 on: November 17, 2009, 02:00:21 AM »

This will rim the voters over and remove another element of democracy from our system. In the interests of the people of the Northeast, and in my first vote, I am therefore going to have to say:

NAY.

It might not go so well if you try to channel the people in your every vote, particularly when you haven't even been elected.

Disraeli is a joke. "OMG EVIL FREDUM HATERZ OMG !!!!!" is the only argument he can provide.
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Barnes
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« Reply #704 on: November 17, 2009, 12:32:22 PM »

The Ayes are Three; the Nays ae Four. The Bill has failed.



Northeast Gun Safety Act

1. Selling firearms to any person below the age of 18 is illegal
2. Salespersons are required to check customer idenity before transaction
3. Selling firearms to convicted felons is illegal
4. Selling firearms to persons with confirmed serious mental ilness is illegal
5. Every school in the Northeast Region is required to provide a compulsory coursed for every student below the age of 15 about dangers of using the firearms, as well as about providing a basic medical help to gunshot victims in every 3 months.

The Question is, shall the bill be considered? The Ayes have it.

The Sponsor, Rep. Antonio V, has the floor.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #705 on: November 17, 2009, 02:03:58 PM »

I'm too bothered thes times to make a speech. This bill has been created by former Rep Kalwejt and I just introduced it to keep it valid after his resignation.

Anyways, considering that conservatives have an absolute majority here I guess this bill has no chance to pass...
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #706 on: November 17, 2009, 03:29:45 PM »

It's unfortunate that this wouldn't pass, because it seems to be common sense. Anyone who would consider themselves pro-gun should embrace this measure. Not only does it provide for common safety, and it doesn't limit sales to anyone except the mentally imbalanced.

Would you want a crazy person to have a gun?...

Other than that, I don't see why this bill can't be supported. So if my conservative friends on the other side of the asile could explain any opposition, I welcome the chance to fight on this bill's behalf, if Antonio doesn't want to.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #707 on: November 17, 2009, 04:18:14 PM »

Sorry, mate, but recent events totally demoralized me. Nowadays, facts and logical reasonments don't matter anymore.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #708 on: November 17, 2009, 04:52:14 PM »

This will rim the voters over and remove another element of democracy from our system. In the interests of the people of the Northeast, and in my first vote, I am therefore going to have to say:

NAY.

It might not go so well if you try to channel the people in your every vote, particularly when you haven't even been elected.

Disraeli is a joke. "OMG EVIL FREDUM HATERZ OMG !!!!!" is the only argument he can provide.

Don't be an ass.

As to the new act, I oppose any attempts to restrict the right to bear firearms, as they are the best defence against invasion of property by criminals. Atlasia was historically a frontier country, and guns are part of our tradition.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #709 on: November 17, 2009, 05:07:04 PM »

The Ayes are Three; the Nays ae Four. The Bill has failed.



Northeast Gun Safety Act

1. Selling firearms to any person below the age of 18 is illegal
2. Salespersons are required to check customer idenity before transaction
3. Selling firearms to convicted felons is illegal
4. Selling firearms to persons with confirmed serious mental ilness is illegal
5. Every school in the Northeast Region is required to provide a compulsory coursed for every student below the age of 15 about dangers of using the firearms, as well as about providing a basic medical help to gunshot victims in every 3 months.

The Question is, shall the bill be considered? The Ayes have it.

The Sponsor, Rep. Antonio V, has the floor.


Actually, I'd be willing to sign this as a compromise if Sections 2 and 5 were struck from the bill.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #710 on: November 17, 2009, 05:10:07 PM »

Why would you be opposed to safety classes and I.D.s for getting a firearm? That's a pretty foolish thing to do.

I oppose any restriction on the production or selling of firearms, but it stands to reason this would be helpful and somewhat necessary.

Safety and Liberty can coexist within this bill and I defy you to prove otherwise.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #711 on: November 17, 2009, 05:13:01 PM »

The Ayes are Three; the Nays ae Four. The Bill has failed.



Northeast Gun Safety Act

1. Selling firearms to any person below the age of 18 is illegal
2. Salespersons are required to check customer idenity before transaction
3. Selling firearms to convicted felons is illegal
4. Selling firearms to persons with confirmed serious mental ilness is illegal
5. Every school in the Northeast Region is required to provide a compulsory coursed for every student below the age of 15 about dangers of using the firearms, as well as about providing a basic medical help to gunshot victims in every 3 months.

The Question is, shall the bill be considered? The Ayes have it.

The Sponsor, Rep. Antonio V, has the floor.


I would like to offer two amendments, one to strike Section 2, and one to strike Section 5.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #712 on: November 17, 2009, 05:14:09 PM »

Why would you be opposed to safety classes and I.D.s for getting a firearm? That's a pretty foolish thing to do.

I oppose any restriction on the production or selling of firearms, but it stands to reason this would be helpful and somewhat necessary.

Safety and Liberty can coexist within this bill and I defy you to prove otherwise.

I don't see why the government should have any role in telling the people the right way to use a firearm. To me, it seems like the first step in an attempt to simply restrict guns altogether. As for IDs, citizens have a RIGHT to bear arms, one which should not be infringed upon by ID checks.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #713 on: November 17, 2009, 05:14:27 PM »

The Ayes are Three; the Nays ae Four. The Bill has failed.



Northeast Gun Safety Act

1. Selling firearms to any person below the age of 18 is illegal
2. Salespersons are required to check customer idenity before transaction
3. Selling firearms to convicted felons is illegal
4. Selling firearms to persons with confirmed serious mental ilness is illegal
5. Every school in the Northeast Region is required to provide a compulsory coursed for every student below the age of 15 about dangers of using the firearms, as well as about providing a basic medical help to gunshot victims in every 3 months.

The Question is, shall the bill be considered? The Ayes have it.

The Sponsor, Rep. Antonio V, has the floor.


I would like to offer two amendments, one to strike Section 2, and one to strike Section 5.

You will have to reprint the bill with the desired amendments to make it official. Go back a few pages and see how it's done. It's easy.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #714 on: November 17, 2009, 05:17:05 PM »

I would like to offer the following, amended version of the bill for debate.

Northeast Gun Safety Act

1. Selling firearms to any person below the age of 18 is illegal
2. Salespersons are required to check customer idenity before transaction
3. Selling firearms to convicted felons is illegal
4. Selling firearms to persons with confirmed serious mental ilness is illegal
5. Every school in the Northeast Region is required to provide a compulsory coursed for every student below the age of 15 about dangers of using the firearms, as well as about providing a basic medical help to gunshot victims in every 3 months.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #715 on: November 17, 2009, 05:17:29 PM »

I don't see why the government should have any role in telling the people the right way to use a firearm. To me, it seems like the first step in an attempt to simply restrict guns altogether. As for IDs, citizens have a RIGHT to bear arms, one which should not be infringed upon by ID checks.

So, then released criminals or those with criminal backgrounds could get those guns anyway?... Also, it makes perfect sense to have gun safety courses available. What would be the point of having it if you can't use it? I see no reason why these should be stricken.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #716 on: November 17, 2009, 05:20:34 PM »

I don't see why the government should have any role in telling the people the right way to use a firearm. To me, it seems like the first step in an attempt to simply restrict guns altogether. As for IDs, citizens have a RIGHT to bear arms, one which should not be infringed upon by ID checks.

So, then released criminals or those with criminal backgrounds could get those guns anyway?... Also, it makes perfect sense to have gun safety courses available. What would be the point of having it if you can't use it? I see no reason why these should be stricken.

I support having them AVAILABLE. What he is asking is for it to be COMPULSORY. Also, criminals, if caught, would be facing extra time for using a firearm in aggression AS WELL as breaking the law by possessing one in the first place.
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Smid
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« Reply #717 on: November 17, 2009, 05:42:58 PM »

I am strongly in favour of this Bill.

As far as I'm aware, the Atlasian Constitution is silent regarding the right to bear arms? Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong?
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cinyc
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« Reply #718 on: November 17, 2009, 08:46:20 PM »
« Edited: November 17, 2009, 08:49:30 PM by cinyc »

I am strongly in favour of this Bill.

As far as I'm aware, the Atlasian Constitution is silent regarding the right to bear arms? Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong?

False.  The First Amendment to the Second Atlasian Constitution  states "The right to keep and bear fire-arms and low-potency explosives shall not be infringed." The right to keep and bear arms has always been in it; the First Amendment amended Article VI, Section 4 to add the low-potency explosives part.

This bill is arguably unconstitutional under that provision, which, lacking a preamble mentioning a well-regulated militia,  is even more explicit than the Second Amendment to the US Constitution.  I'll have to look to see if any similar federal or regional law is on the books.
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cinyc
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« Reply #719 on: November 17, 2009, 09:25:35 PM »
« Edited: November 18, 2009, 12:00:50 AM by cinyc »

I've found 3 laws on gun ownership, 2 federal and 1 in the Northeast (subject to the usual
caveat that NE bills passed 2007 and later aren't in the wiki).

Let's discuss the Northeastern law first, the Northeast Concealed Carry Act.  It allows our citizens to get a 5-year license to conceal carry firearms if they pay a fee.  The only citizens to which this license will be denied are persons convicted of violent crimes or robbery - and they get their rights back if they stay out of trouble for 5 years, get a job, marry someone with a job, or grow old enough.  There's no exception for persons with mental illness.

Under the federal Protection of the Right to Bear Arms Act, everyone but a convicted felon that a court has independently punished by removing his right to bear arms could theoretically own a gun under federal law.  And under the Expansion of Gun Rights Act, everyone but minors, convicted felons whose rights a court has taken away, and "anyone who is insane" can conceal carry in DC and the federal territories without a permit.

So under the proposed law, it would be illegal to sell a gun to people who otherwise might have the right to conceal and/or bear arms under Northeastern and federal law - at a minimum, those convicted of non-violent crimes, non-violent felons whose rights have been taken away by a court, and persons with mental illness.

The wiki doesn't say whether the constitutionality of these laws has been challenged.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #720 on: November 18, 2009, 12:11:33 AM »

I support having them AVAILABLE. What he is asking is for it to be COMPULSORY. Also, criminals, if caught, would be facing extra time for using a firearm in aggression AS WELL as breaking the law by possessing one in the first place.

I think what the bill is asking is perfectly reasonable. It's not as though they are being restricted in anyway, but providing photo I.D. is a reasonable safety precaution. There's nothing in this bill about making them unavailable to anyone other than the criminal or the insane. Identification presentation is one way to help prevent them from falling into those hands.
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cinyc
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« Reply #721 on: November 19, 2009, 04:43:19 AM »

I think what the bill is asking is perfectly reasonable. It's not as though they are being restricted in anyway, but providing photo I.D. is a reasonable safety precaution. There's nothing in this bill about making them unavailable to anyone other than the criminal or the insane. Identification presentation is one way to help prevent them from falling into those hands.

My main problem with the bill even is amended as how it deals with criminals and especially the insane.  Owning a gun is a right in Atlasia, and no one's rights should be taken away without due process.  The bill's blanket prohibition on selling guns to convicted felons doesn't comport with current federal or Northeastern law (why should a white collar criminal be unable to hunt for life after serving his time?),  "confirmed mental illness" isn't defined, and a judicial determination of "confirmed mental illness" (whatever that is - remember - in the old days, that would have meant being homosexual)  isn't necessary, as I read the bill.  Would a soldier returning from the recent battle in New Mexico who seeks treatment for PTSD be swept up in the language?  Possibly - and he shouldn't be, absent a judicial determination that he is insane.  And the law shouldn't stop potential gun owners from seeking help for mental illness, nor should it allow a psychiatrist alone to determine when we should be taking constitutional rights away from people.

I haven't had time to mark up an amendment, though may tomorrow if we're willing to wait for it.
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Small Business Owner of Any Repute
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« Reply #722 on: November 19, 2009, 10:31:04 AM »

Can we really wind up being opposed to checking the ID of people who want to buy guns?  I mean, my God, even the NRA supports that, no?

I agree on striking number 5.  Why we need to waste valuable public school time on gun safety courses, I have no idea.
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Small Business Owner of Any Repute
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« Reply #723 on: November 19, 2009, 10:33:11 AM »

I think what the bill is asking is perfectly reasonable. It's not as though they are being restricted in anyway, but providing photo I.D. is a reasonable safety precaution. There's nothing in this bill about making them unavailable to anyone other than the criminal or the insane. Identification presentation is one way to help prevent them from falling into those hands.

My main problem with the bill even is amended as how it deals with criminals and especially the insane.  Owning a gun is a right in Atlasia, and no one's rights should be taken away without due process.  The bill's blanket prohibition on selling guns to convicted felons doesn't comport with current federal or Northeastern law (why should a white collar criminal be unable to hunt for life after serving his time?),  "confirmed mental illness" isn't defined, and a judicial determination of "confirmed mental illness" (whatever that is - remember - in the old days, that would have meant being homosexual)  isn't necessary, as I read the bill.  Would a soldier returning from the recent battle in New Mexico who seeks treatment for PTSD be swept up in the language?  Possibly - and he shouldn't be, absent a judicial determination that he is insane.  And the law shouldn't stop potential gun owners from seeking help for mental illness, nor should it allow a psychiatrist alone to determine when we should be taking constitutional rights away from people.

I haven't had time to mark up an amendment, though may tomorrow if we're willing to wait for it.

This is actually a very good point, IMO.
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k-onmmunist
Winston Disraeli
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« Reply #724 on: November 19, 2009, 02:10:40 PM »

After a rethink, I've decided I'm willing to accept this as long as Section 5 is stricken:

Northeast Gun Safety Act

1. Selling firearms to any person below the age of 18 is illegal
2. Salespersons are required to check customer idenity before transaction
3. Selling firearms to convicted felons is illegal
4. Selling firearms to persons with confirmed serious mental ilness is illegal
5. Every school in the Northeast Region is required to provide a compulsory coursed for every student below the age of 15 about dangers of using the firearms, as well as about providing a basic medical help to gunshot victims in every 3 months.
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