what if this is elections' scenario

[Gustaf]

The interesting thins is if a state delegation is tied...

[Gustaf]

The interesting thins is if a state delegation is tied...

then they seat until a decition

I know, there's no tie-breaker...now, let's assume that the Dems win back a couple of state delqagtions (unlikely, I know) making it 25-25. THEN what ahppens?

[Gustaf]

DELEGATES
KERRY
American Samoa
Guam
Puerto Rico
Virgin Is.

BUSH
-

STATES
BUSH
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Carolina
Utah
Wyoming

KERRY
Arkansas
California
DC
Hawaii
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
New Jersey
New York
North Dakota
Oregon
Rhode Island
Tennessee
Washington
West Virginia

TIE
Minnesota
Mississippi
Texas
Wisconsin

INDEPENDENT
Vermont

UNKNOWN
South Dakota

So a firm win to Bush if it goes to the house

You COULD try and win it back... then again, maybe not...

[Gustaf]

Damn you Ensworth

I just spent 15 minutes trawling through the office of the clerk of the house findind party affiliation of every state...oh well.

Yeah, I was wondering why you posted that same thing...

[Gustaf]

I know, there's no tie-breaker...now, let's assume that the Dems win back a couple of state delqagtions (unlikely, I know) making it 25-25. THEN what ahppens?

Remember the Jefferson-Burr election? The House of Representatives voted again and again, and after 36 ballots, finally elected Jefferson.

Yeah, I watched that one on CNN...

I didn't know there were numerous votes in the House that time, no. But with today's party structure what would break a tie? Imagine a Rep. giving the presidency to the other party...he would get SO hated.

[Gustaf]

if a state's pv is dem and the representatives majority is rep (or vice versa), woudnt you say it's their obligation to vote by the state's pv

I would, the reps in question wouldn't...

[Gustaf]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It seems that intricate hypotheticals are much-beloved. Perhaps we could complicate matters further: the Senate is tied, and the Vice President would be unable to cast a casting vote - though the constitution states clearly, "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided," the Twelfth Amendment provides, "The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two- thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States," - one would note that a "a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice," therefore meaning that 51 Senators - not 50 Senators plus the Vice President - would be necessary to choose the Vice President. The Country would then be left with neither a President nor a Vice President, and the Speaker of the House of Representatives, if eligible, would become President for the interim.

When does the interim end? And what's the time limit? I mean, if the speaker is made president, can the House no longer elect one?

[Gustaf]

When does the interim end? And what's the time limit? I mean, if the speaker is made president, can the House no longer elect one?

According to the Twentieth Amendment:

If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

Therefore, if the Senate arrives at a choice for the Vice President, then that person would take over from the Speaker. Of course, if the House elects a President, then that person would take over the Presidency. Otherwise, the Speaker would remain President.

The Speaker would have to resign as both Representative and Speaker to become Acting President; if the Speaker comes from a tied delegation, then that delegation would obviously change parties; while if the Speaker would come from a delegation in which one party had a one-vote majority, that state would have a tied vote. Thus, the Speaker's Presidency could lead to the election of a president.

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

[Gustaf]

Yeah, and he could possibly give the presidency to the opposition. In such an event could he postpone it, by stepping down or something? Or make a swich in speakers or whatever?

3 US 20: The only evidence of a refusal to accept, or of a resignation of the office of President or Vice President, shall be an instrument in writing, declaring the same, and subscribed by the person refusing to accept or resigning, as the case may be, and delivered into the office of the Secretary of State. The Speaker could deliver his refusal to the Secretyary of State, and would then not need to step down from the House.

Is there and end to the line of succession? I know that's VERY unlikely, butif there is could you end up without a president alltogether?

[Gustaf]

yeah, I meant congressional delegation.  sorry.  Bush wins.

you people made lots of comments.  Actually Hamilton gave Aaron Burr a hard time after that election.  Hamilton was killed.  Like anna lind.  Burr was discredited.    This is how we settle those things.

That's:  the wealthy elitist capitalist banker was killed by the populist New Jersey kid.  Okay, boys and girls?  There's always a solution.

Whoa.  it occurs to me that the preceding could be seriously misinterpreted.  I am not suggesting anything of the sort.  glad I caught that.  I apologize if I offended anyone.

I am not sure what Anna Lindh has to do with anything...lot of people get killed, many politicians are among them

[Gustaf]

everybody preperd for the house, BUT On on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December one elector - does not matter which party - votes for the other guy. 270-268

what is America reaction

If the changed vote is to the candidate that would have won in the House (Republican presumably) it won't be viewed as a big deal. In fact the elector may be a sort of hero for saving the House from voting.

However, if it's a vote change that changes the outcome and it cuts against the GOP we will never hear the end of it. Republicans don't take losing well.

You're right.  I think this scenario would be one of the few where you might see something like a defacto coup.

You mean, like a civil war or something?

[Gustaf]

everybody preperd for the house, BUT On on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December one elector - does not matter which party - votes for the other guy. 270-268

what is America reaction

If the changed vote is to the candidate that would have won in the House (Republican presumably) it won't be viewed as a big deal. In fact the elector may be a sort of hero for saving the House from voting.

However, if it's a vote change that changes the outcome and it cuts against the GOP we will never hear the end of it. Republicans don't take losing well.

You're right.  I think this scenario would be one of the few where you might see something like a defacto coup.

You mean, like a civil war or something?

No I mean like Bush might conceivably refuse to accept the validity of an elector or two switching to Kerry.  

Oh, but how would he do that? I mean, refuse to step down or what? I remember Bush said something like he would demand that the electors would vote for him if he won the PV but lost the EV. BEFORE the election, of course...

[Gustaf]

everybody preperd for the house, BUT On on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December one elector - does not matter which party - votes for the other guy. 270-268

what is America reaction

If the changed vote is to the candidate that would have won in the House (Republican presumably) it won't be viewed as a big deal. In fact the elector may be a sort of hero for saving the House from voting.

However, if it's a vote change that changes the outcome and it cuts against the GOP we will never hear the end of it. Republicans don't take losing well.

You're right.  I think this scenario would be one of the few where you might see something like a defacto coup.

You mean, like a civil war or something?

No I mean like Bush might conceivably refuse to accept the validity of an elector or two switching to Kerry.  

Oh, but how would he do that? I mean, refuse to step down or what? I remember Bush said something like he would demand that the electors would vote for him if he won the PV but lost the EV. BEFORE the election, of course...

Yeah, just say 'they're breaking the public trust' or something like that, and not step down.  I suppose he could get some sort of validation through congress or the supreme court.

He would be breaking the constitution though.

[Gustaf]

everybody preperd for the house, BUT On on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December one elector - does not matter which party - votes for the other guy. 270-268

what is America reaction

If the changed vote is to the candidate that would have won in the House (Republican presumably) it won't be viewed as a big deal. In fact the elector may be a sort of hero for saving the House from voting.

However, if it's a vote change that changes the outcome and it cuts against the GOP we will never hear the end of it. Republicans don't take losing well.

You're right.  I think this scenario would be one of the few where you might see something like a defacto coup.

You mean, like a civil war or something?

No I mean like Bush might conceivably refuse to accept the validity of an elector or two switching to Kerry.  

Oh, but how would he do that? I mean, refuse to step down or what? I remember Bush said something like he would demand that the electors would vote for him if he won the PV but lost the EV. BEFORE the election, of course...

Yeah, just say 'they're breaking the public trust' or something like that, and not step down.  I suppose he could get some sort of validation through congress or the supreme court.

He would be breaking the constitution though.

I wonder what would happen.. you know, something like 98% of army officers are GOP.. 65% of enlisted men (though less commited).. and a solid majority of police officers..

I figured you'd get to that at some point...but you know what they say of conservatives, 'Too chicken to fight, too fat to run' When the mobs of poor workers come out into the streets shouting the slogans of the French Revolution, then you'd tremble...

Seriously, I think that a lot of Republicans would dislike messing with the constitution like that. Someone on this forum once states that the difference between conservatives and liberals were that the latter believed in the silly following the spirit of the law, whereas conservatives followed it ti the letter. Also, whoever acts always loses support. Bush would have to do stuff, whereas Kerry would just have to play by the rules to get the presidency.

[Gustaf]

What if:
Election night....In a race that beats the 2000 nuthouse the presidential elections will go to the house.
all network predictions are 269-269 tie:



final result:
Kerry - 48.762%
Bush - 48.761%
Nader - 2.00%
all others - 0.477%

everybody preperd for the house, BUT On on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December one elector - does not matter which party - votes for the other guy. 270-268

what is America reaction

If Bush wins all of the states he did in 2000, plus Minnesota, Iowa, and Pennsylvania, he has a partial landslide. Don't rule out California either. Can the Govenator pull that state for Bush/Cheney. I hope Kerry picks Richardson.

The relevance to this thread being...?