Anti-minaret poster campaign divides Swiss cities

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Well, yes. The issue is, beyond intolerance, xenophobia, and non-equal rights in practicing a religion since churches have bell towers, clearly in what it shows of Europe.

That's just Switzerland, and for a few years (according to what I've heard, their psychological problems there really began when they welcomed Kosovars from Kosovo's war) this country is far to be a model in that realm, thus my non-surprise of this result, and my surprise of the surprise of the whole journalists (well, at least those of mainstream media).

I consider it a hard shot of Europe in any cases. Now all far-rightist populists around here feel more free and encouraged to to give some more voice to their anti-Muslim propaganda, yes, Holland comes here as an example, but also Denmark, the usual Austria, Italia might certainly enjoy too, not sure about what's about in Britain, and well our FN enjoyed it all the same (though, I must say this one remains the most decent throughout Europe, and I'm glad the far-rightist populism against Muslim hasn't a lot of voice here), countries of Eastern Europe might enjoy too, and so forth, that stuff is trendy.

And what will happen if EU court or Swiss court or whatever says this is illegal. Double force for populists they will come around yelling that there is no freedom and no democracy, that nobody listens to the people, etc, and people who are inclined to think like them will feel this way, and far-right feeling will grow...

In short, that's such a f**king thing.

The only 'positive' aspect of stuffs like that it is that effectively shows how is the situation, and it gives some expression, some reality, to an existing feeling. And well, that's always better to see something if it actually exists than if it remains hidden, if you wanna treat a problem, you have to acknowledge its existence. Though, yes, it hurts.

[Scam of God]

Grotesque.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Can someone who knows more about the area tell me about how they think Swiss Catholics differentiate with Swiss Protestants (roughly equal populations) about this issue?

A results map was linked to earlier in the thread (before all the nasty stuff... you know...) and here be maps of religion, language and so on...

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/regionen/thematische_karten/maps/bevoelkerung/sprachen_religionen.html

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What I'm saying is that nations and cultural groups should have the right to preserve their culture institutions. If a bunch of Europeans started building Gothic-style churches in Baghdad or Riyadh, I think that the locals there would support a similar ban. Obviously xenophobia, racism and bigotry should be not condoned, but if we separate these from the equation here, I don't believe that there's anything wrong with the actual law (though it is a little stupid to amend the constitution to enforce this; a regular statute should have sufficed). Unfortunately, as you pointed out, at least in this situation (and I think this is a problem with these sort of populist, anti-immigrant movements of the right throughout Europe), separating the bigotry from the desire to preserve cultural institutions is basically impossible.

Actually, minarets fit in quite well with the overall tone of Swiss architecture.

[Hash]

Can someone who knows more about the area tell me about how they think Swiss Catholics differentiate with Swiss Protestants (roughly equal populations) about this issue?

A results map was linked to earlier in the thread (before all the nasty stuff... you know...) and here be maps of religion, language and so on...

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/regionen/thematische_karten/maps/bevoelkerung/sprachen_religionen.html

I don't think religion played a large role, most of the deciding factors were wealth, social liberalism or number of immigrants.

I doubt Romandie voted NO because they're French or rather historically Protestant, but because they're more liberal. In fact, rural Romandie voted YES by a large margin.

[Gustaf]

Adding to Hashemite's point I think it is pretty clear that religion was not an important factor, looking at the maps.

From a cursory glance it would however seem that language did play a part, with the Italian-speaking part being most for No, French-speaking part being for Yes and the German-speaking part being Yes.

[Hash]

From a cursory glance it would however seem that language did play a part, with the Italian-speaking part being most for No, French-speaking part being for Yes and the German-speaking part being Yes.

I don't think language itself was a huge factor, it's well known that French areas are the most liberal areas of the country.

There was a marked urban-rural divide, I'll say that.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Can someone who knows more about the area tell me about how they think Swiss Catholics differentiate with Swiss Protestants (roughly equal populations) about this issue?

A results map was linked to earlier in the thread (before all the nasty stuff... you know...) and here be maps of religion, language and so on...

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/regionen/thematische_karten/maps/bevoelkerung/sprachen_religionen.html

I don't think religion played a large role, most of the deciding factors were wealth, social liberalism or number of immigrants.

Outside of these criteria, I personally tend to think the most important could be a kind of paranoiac fear carried on by all what people can see and hear in their media.

[Tender Branson]

Latest TNS-NIPO Netherlands poll on a minaret ban:

40% YES
56% NO

600 people polled yesterday for RTL News

http://www.tns-nipo.com/pages/nieuws-pers-rtl.asp?file=persvannipo\rtl_minaretten_301109.htm

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Adding to Hashemite's point I think it is pretty clear that religion was not an important factor, looking at the maps.

From a cursory glance it would however seem that language did play a part, with the Italian-speaking part being most for No, French-speaking part being for Yes and the German-speaking part being Yes.

I think it's more that the language division happens to correspond neatly with a few other social divisions.
Might be interesting to compare results with party support maps, actually.

[Rob]

But you didn't address my two hypothetical questions.

I've been called a fascist, asked if I want another Holocaust, and been compared to defenders of slavery. I guess I lose.

[k-onmmunist]

But you didn't address my two hypothetical questions.

I've been called a fascist, asked if I want another Holocaust, and been compared to defenders of slavery. I guess I lose.

This is what you get when you try talking to the sort of people who think religion is wonderful.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I don't see the problem with fighting back against organized religion.

This had nothing to do with a "fight" against organised religion (as if Islam has any political power in Switzerland anyway) and everything to do with attacking an unpopular minority group.

[Lunar]

But you didn't address my two hypothetical questions.

I've been called a fascist, asked if I want another Holocaust, and been compared to defenders of slavery. I guess I lose.

The fascist part I meant, and the latter two were taking your implied position (anything that fights organized religion, apparently without any limits) to their hypothetical extremes to prove my point, although I think the slavery bit came from before you posted.    Applying a person's reasoning to a situation everyone can agree is bad (a second Holocaust in this case) is a common logical tactic.  Without bringing this discussion outside of the one minaret a year that will no longer be built in Switzerland, we'd have little to talk about.

[Хahar 🤔]

But you didn't address my two hypothetical questions.

I've been called a fascist, asked if I want another Holocaust, and been compared to defenders of slavery. I guess I lose.

This is what you get when you try talking to the sort of people who think religion is wonderful.

Indeed it is.

[Lunar]

I called him a fascist not out of any love for religion as I am areligious, and again, the other two were logical hypotheticals (even if rhetorically charged) to require him to either specify his argument down to exclude those extremes or recant.   Backing this discriminatory measure because it indirectly hurts religion makes no sense without further explanations to exclude the extreme (otherwise why not just kill all religious people if we have no moral limits or guidance in achieving our long-term goals?) or even an explanation of how that makes any sense whatsoever (do you think banning stained glass windows will hurt Christianity as a societal movement?).  I don't think he believes in creating future Holocausts, but he may tolerate xenophobic discrimination with nonsensical justification, which is also really bad but not quite as bad.

[Silent Hunter]

I don't see the problem with fighting back against organized religion.

This had nothing to do with a "fight" against organised religion (as if Islam has any political power in Switzerland anyway) and everything to do with attacking an unpopular minority group.

It's xenophobia too.