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  Common myths created by the conservative elite.
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Author Topic: Common myths created by the conservative elite.  (Read 679 times)
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HoffmanJohn
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« on: March 10, 2010, 12:54:47 pm »

These are the guys who probably spend their entire day working at CATO, or other think tanks that have effectively erected several myths about particular policies. These myths are successful because often times a self-proclaimed liberal will think it is true.

1.AA creates racial quotas
2. The CRA caused the financial crisis, or the CRA had a large role in creating the housing bubble.
3. Climate change is not a reality despite what most climate experts think.
4. Welfare is full of fraud and has not helped to decrease the poverty rate.
5. Privatizing social security in order to save Social Security!(even though privatization failed in Britain).
6. Death Panels!!!!!

Some of these myths are easier to debunk than others, but this doesn't mean that conservatives wont stop believing in them. For example anyone who has taken an honest look at AA knows that it does not lead to quotas, but this won't stop conservatives from arguing that they do create quotas. Which is kind of weird because there are more honest ways to argue against AA.

Perhaps the most disappointing claim that comes from the right would be the one about Death Panels. Whenever I hear someone even mention this I have to stop and think about how dumb our world can sometimes be. It is rather disheartening to see our media embrace such anti-intellectual positions, and especially so when I want society to embrace higher thinking.

The only think I can hope for is that one day a revolution in thought will occur that will help our species ascend this ideological idiocy. In the 21st century I want the community to be like the school of athens, and the nation to be like the planet vulcan.

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Franzl
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« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 12:57:09 pm »

kthx
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Torie
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« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 01:32:06 pm »
« Edited: March 10, 2010, 01:34:17 pm by Torie »

I am not sure if this post is troll bait, but there is some truth in most of the posited "myths."  Life is often more nuanced than true and false. I actually posted a bit about how in practice AA can morph into quotas effectively speaking. If rationing = death panels, well then that is where we are headed. The CRA was a contributor as part of a larger government full court press via Fannie and Freddie to push lenders to make sub prime mortgages, which was one major, but not the only, factor in the financial melt down. Read Snowguy's stuff here on climate change, and some of the number cooking that has gone on, and new evidence that raises major questions about the CO2 = global warming edifice. Welfare did contribute to a perma-poverty class until Bill Clinton was effectively forced, kicking and screaming, to triangulate and sign off on welfare reform to secure his re-election. And so on.
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HoffmanJohn
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« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 03:41:54 pm »

I am not sure if this post is troll bait, but there is some truth in most of the posited "myths."  Life is often more nuanced than true and false. I actually posted a bit about how in practice AA can morph into quotas effectively speaking. If rationing = death panels, well then that is where we are headed. The CRA was a contributor as part of a larger government full court press via Fannie and Freddie to push lenders to make sub prime mortgages, which was one major, but not the only, factor in the financial melt down. Read Snowguy's stuff here on climate change, and some of the number cooking that has gone on, and new evidence that raises major questions about the CO2 = global warming edifice. Welfare did contribute to a perma-poverty class until Bill Clinton was effectively forced, kicking and screaming, to triangulate and sign off on welfare reform to secure his re-election. And so on.

yes this thread was created in order to start an argument.
Show how AA could lead to quotas, but also admit that the policy itself does directly create quotas.

//The CRA was a contributor//
by how much?
Sub-prime loans have a much higher default rate when compared to CRA loans, and in fact CRA loans are more comparable to prime loans. Meanwhile independent institutions that were non-CRA backed were more likely to engage in sub-prime, and they also had a much higher default rate. Thus if the CRA had a sizable impact on the housing crisis than wouldn't there be more CRA loans defaulting?

//new evidence that raises major questions about the CO2 = global warming edifice.//
The more accurate phrase is "climate change", and do you care to show me such evidence?

//Welfare did contribute to a perma-poverty class//
care to explain why the poverty rate dropped from 22% and bottomed out at 11%? This decline occurred from 1963 to the early 70's! This is the most dramatic drop in poverty in our nations history. I have my own explanation,but I would like to hear yours......

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Torie
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« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 05:03:02 pm »

Well there are a lot of factual assertions there.  On "climate change" do you read snowguy's posts on the topic, and if you do, what do you think of them?

I was around to witness the AFDC cf, and the fix, which fix proved to be remarkably successful, and at least in that case, it was the "liberals" angst about it all being reformed, which proved to not be well taken.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 05:04:42 pm »


1.AA creates racial quotas
2. The CRA caused the financial crisis, or the CRA had a large role in creating the housing bubble.
3. Climate change is not a reality despite what most climate experts think.
4. Welfare is full of fraud and has not helped to decrease the poverty rate.
5. Privatizing social security in order to save Social Security!(even though privatization failed in Britain).
6. Death Panels!!!!!


The bolded ones aren't myths.
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opebo
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« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 05:06:18 pm »

Welfare did contribute to a perma-poverty class until Bill Clinton was effectively forced, kicking and screaming, to triangulate and sign off on welfare reform to secure his re-election. And so on.

Dude, there is still a perma-poverty class.  Permanent poverty is created by capitalism, not welfare.  That's like saying the bandaid is causing the infection, not the guy who stabbed you.

(the rest of that nonsense, is of course all just nonsense as well).
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 09:06:35 pm »

Most conservatives believe climate change is real.  The cause behind it is what most conservatives would argue with.
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Psychic Octopus
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« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 09:09:24 pm »

kthx
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HoffmanJohn
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« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 09:27:49 pm »
« Edited: March 10, 2010, 09:36:11 pm by HoffmanJohn »

Well there are a lot of factual assertions there.  On "climate change" do you read snowguy's posts on the topic, and if you do, what do you think of them?

I was around to witness the AFDC cf, and the fix, which fix proved to be remarkably successful, and at least in that case, it was the "liberals" angst about it all being reformed, which proved to not be well taken.

//I was around to witness the AFDC cf, and the fix, which fix proved to be remarkably successful, and at least in that case, it was the "liberals" angst about it all being reformed, which proved to not be well taken. //

Appeal to self-expierence fallacy.....
I'll read snow guys posts later as i am in the middle of something. I'll probably respond on saturday at the latest.

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opebo
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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2010, 01:21:29 pm »

I was around to witness the AFDC cf, and the fix, which fix proved to be remarkably successful, and at least in that case, it was the "liberals" angst about it all being reformed, which proved to not be well taken.

Appeal to self-expierence fallacy.....

And an especially absurd appeal in this case, as Torie has been privileged his whole life and never had any contact with poverty whatsoever.
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Torie
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2010, 01:57:23 pm »
« Edited: March 11, 2010, 05:21:53 pm by Torie »

I was around to witness the AFDC cf, and the fix, which fix proved to be remarkably successful, and at least in that case, it was the "liberals" angst about it all being reformed, which proved to not be well taken.

Appeal to self-expierence fallacy.....

And an especially absurd appeal in this case, as Torie has been privileged his whole life and never had any contact with poverty whatsoever.

It is not based on my personal experience actually (I never suggested that), but rather based on well, reading articles about the  welfare issue over time as it was all unfolding and thereafter. Believe it or not, I do actually read stuff. I hope that helps. Smiley

Oh, and one other little ministerial matter. I actually have had contact with poverty believe it or not. I lived in a very marginal neighborhood in Chicago, in two different apartment buildings which curiously enough, both had African American hookers either in my building or the one next door. Sometimes, in the wee hours of the morning, when the hookers closed up shop, guys with very loud and powerful voices would shout out their displeasure from the street, and wake my up. Pity I was too shy then to sample their services, but such is life. Oh, and one night, the four apartments on the first two floors who broken into and the residents  robbed at gun point, while I was playing bridge with my buddies in a third floor apartment. For some reason, the thugs didn't make it up to the third floor. And then there were the gun shots and the fire engines which I heard every night. I lived between 60th and 61st streets; south of 61st street was the neighborhood known as Woodlawn, which was essentially burned down while I lived there, dropping in population in 5 years from 70,000 to 20,000.  

I remember one night walking down with about 6 guys to a Chinese Restaurant on 63rd street, and it was like walking through a Fellini film. On the two blocks there must have been about 200 people on the streets (this was around 8 pm), all screwing or getting high or drunk, amid the garbage and the broken glass everywhere. Two years later nothing was left. It was all burned to the ground, everything, by Harry The Torch for the insurance money I suspect. I made it a point never to allow my parents to see where I lived, because they would have freaked out. I figured what they didn't know, wouldn't hurt them.

So now you know the rest of the story.  If interested, my next installment will be about living in the barrio in LA (which relatively speaking was a piece of cake compared to Chicago).

Cheers!
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