Article detailing Bush and Kerry's positions on education

[Nym90]

By The Associated Press

Highlights of the education plans of President Bush (news - web sites) and Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites):

   

Bush:


_Expand the No Child Left Behind law by requiring two more years of testing in reading and math in high school, which would mean annual state testing in grades three to 11. He would request an additional $250 million a year for the tests.


_Create a $500 million fund for states and school districts that choose to reward effective teachers.


_Require that the national test in reading and math be given to representative samples of 12th-graders in every state every two years. The National Assessment of Educational Progress is already required in grades four and eight in every state.


_Provide $50 million to encourage private-school vouchers in local communities. Bush led the way for the nation's first federally backed vouchers in the District of Columbia.


_Expand the Reading First program to ensure teachers are trained in research-based instruction to help young children read. His latest spending request is $1.26 billion.


_Add academic rigor to vocational programs by requiring states that receive federal money to offer four years of English, three years of math and science and three-and-a-half years of social studies. He proposes to trim spending from $1.3 billion to $1 billion.


_Add $33 million to the Pell Grant program for poor students who take rigorous high school courses and then enroll full-time in college. They would earn up to an additional $1,000 per year of aid for their first two years. the maximum yearly award is now $4,050.


_Expand loan forgiveness from $5,000 to $17,500 for math, science and special education teachers who teach in poor schools.


_Expand from $149 million to $269 million a math and science partnership program to speed up the math skills of high school students who are in danger of dropping out.


___


Kerry:


_Establish a $200 billion education trust fund, paid for by rolling back tax cuts on people making more than $200,000 a year. The money would go toward the No Child Left Behind law, education of children with disabilities, teacher training and other programs.


_Create a tax credit of up to $2,500 on up to $4,000 of college tuition for low-to-middle income families.


_Require states receiving federal money to give tougher certification tests to new teacher, and require faster ways to dismissed tenure teachers who are performing poorly.


_Offer at least a $5,000 raise to teachers in high-need schools and at least a $5,000 annual bonus to teachers who fill shortages in subjects such as math and science.

   



_Supports revising the way progress is measured under No Child Left Behind to ensure schools are treated fairly and to discourage them from lowering their standards.

_Pay for four years of college tuition at a public school for students who provide two years of full-time service to the nation, such as by working in troubled schools.

_Improve high-school graduation rates by expanding tutoring, reshaping troubled schools and supporting states that revoke the driver's licenses of students who drop out.

_Begin a national initiative to align high school standards with the skills needed for college and work, and provide incentives for states to ensure they set those standards.

_Expand afterschool to an estimated 3.5 million children by supporting school programs that stay open until 6 p.m. and by providing transportation to the students.

[A18]

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lol, yeah right. He says that about all his spending programs.

[ATFFL]

   

Bush:

_Expand the No Child Left Behind law by requiring two more years of testing in reading and math in high school, which would mean annual state testing in grades three to 11. He would request an additional $250 million a year for the tests.

Good.

   

Bush:

_Create a $500 million fund for states and school districts that choose to reward effective teachers.

Great.

   
Bush:

_Require that the national test in reading and math be given to representative samples of 12th-graders in every state every two years. The National Assessment of Educational Progress is already required in grades four and eight in every state.

Good.

   
Bush:

_Provide $50 million to encourage private-school vouchers in local communities. Bush led the way for the nation's first federally backed vouchers in the District of Columbia.

Good and bad.  I would liek it if vouchers were more clearly tied to failing schools.

   
Bush:

_Expand the Reading First program to ensure teachers are trained in research-based instruction to help young children read. His latest spending request is $1.26 billion.

Best idea yet.

   
Bush:

_Add academic rigor to vocational programs by requiring states that receive federal money to offer four years of English, three years of math and science and three-and-a-half years of social studies. He proposes to trim spending from $1.3 billion to $1 billion.

Good and bad.  I think this is too much to ask of vocational schools, but they should add some core academics.

   
Bush:

_Add $33 million to the Pell Grant program for poor students who take rigorous high school courses and then enroll full-time in college. They would earn up to an additional $1,000 per year of aid for their first two years. the maximum yearly award is now $4,050.

Good plan.  Success in college requries taking at least average level classes.  Kids who do not take those classes should be pushed toward a vocational/technical program.

   
Bush:

_Expand loan forgiveness from $5,000 to $17,500 for math, science and special education teachers who teach in poor schools.

No, it should go for critical needs.  If a school does not need math teachers but does need history (it happens) they shold get the forgiveness.

   
Bush:

_Expand from $149 million to $269 million a math and science partnership program to speed up the math skills of high school students who are in danger of dropping out.

Good.
___

   
Kerry:

_Establish a $200 billion education trust fund, paid for by rolling back tax cuts on people making more than $200,000 a year. The money would go toward the No Child Left Behind law, education of children with disabilities, teacher training and other programs.

How much can he pay for with this rollback?

   
Kerry:

_Create a tax credit of up to $2,500 on up to $4,000 of college tuition for low-to-middle income families.

Ok.

   
Kerry:

_Require states receiving federal money to give tougher certification tests to new teacher, and require faster ways to dismissed tenure teachers who are performing poorly.

Bad and good.  We need more teachers.  Making it harder for them to become teachers is a bad idea.  We also need to be able to get rid of bad teachers, so that is a good idea.

   
Kerry:
_Offer at least a $5,000 raise to teachers in high-need schools and at least a $5,000 annual bonus to teachers who fill shortages in subjects such as math and science.

Better than the Bush plan here.

   
Kerry:

_Supports revising the way progress is measured under No Child Left Behind to ensure schools are treated fairly and to discourage them from lowering their standards.

Meaningless statement.  Schools do not set their own standards in NCLB.

   
Kerry:

_Pay for four years of college tuition at a public school for students who provide two years of full-time service to the nation, such as by working in troubled schools.

Not enough information to know if this is good or bad.  Does military service count?  How about AmeriCorp time?  Can I serve before school or after?

This could be good, bad or meaningless.  Lacking details I will go with meaningless.

   
Kerry:

_Improve high-school graduation rates by expanding tutoring, reshaping troubled schools and supporting states that revoke the driver's licenses of students who drop out.

Reshaping how?  When can the students get the DL back?  What about studnets who dropout before getting a DL (very common)

   
Kerry:

_Begin a national initiative to align high school standards with the skills needed for college and work, and provide incentives for states to ensure they set those standards.

Meaningless.  NCLB does this to a large extent and every state I have looked at already does this.  This is a giveaway to the states for doing what they already do.

   
Kerry:

_Expand afterschool to an estimated 3.5 million children by supporting school programs that stay open until 6 p.m. and by providing transportation to the students.

Good idea.

[CollectiveInterest]

Tred,

Why should the federal gov't spend money on education? Is this authorized by the Constitution?

[ATFFL]

Tred,

Why should the federal gov't spend money on education? Is this authorized by the Constitution?

You seem to have me confused with a Libertarian or strict Constitutionalist.

Education could be improved and money cut from education budgets by refocusing where the money goes.  Cut all the experimental crap and put it all into teacher salaries and basic school supplies.

NCLB does not fund the experimental crap and does fund the basics.  I wish it put more money into teacher salary, but I expect that to come in time.

Properly educating America's youth is a vital national interest.  Since many states, including some of the most populous, were failing to do so the federal government had to step in. 

[CollectiveInterest]

Tred,

Why should the federal gov't spend money on education? Is this authorized by the Constitution?

You seem to have me confused with a Libertarian or strict Constitutionalist.

Education could be improved and money cut from education budgets by refocusing where the money goes.  Cut all the experimental crap and put it all into teacher salaries and basic school supplies.

NCLB does not fund the experimental crap and does fund the basics.  I wish it put more money into teacher salary, but I expect that to come in time.

Properly educating America's youth is a vital national interest.  Since many states, including some of the most populous, were failing to do so the federal government had to step in. 

What is your definition of a "failing" education system?

Will vouchers increase or decrease teacher salaries?

[ATFFL]

Tred,

Why should the federal gov't spend money on education? Is this authorized by the Constitution?

You seem to have me confused with a Libertarian or strict Constitutionalist.

Education could be improved and money cut from education budgets by refocusing where the money goes.  Cut all the experimental crap and put it all into teacher salaries and basic school supplies.

NCLB does not fund the experimental crap and does fund the basics.  I wish it put more money into teacher salary, but I expect that to come in time.

Properly educating America's youth is a vital national interest.  Since many states, including some of the most populous, were failing to do so the federal government had to step in. 

What is your definition of a "failing" education system?

Will vouchers increase or decrease teacher salaries?

Failing is an increasing inability for students to read, write and perform basic math and understand basic science.  These rates were in decline for far too long.

Vouchers can improve teacher salary indirectly.  More students in private schools allow them to pay teachers more and to expand, allowing them to hire more teachers.

It also forces public education to pay teachers more to keep qualified teachers in the system.

Market forces are a good thing.

[CollectiveInterest]

Failing is an increasing inability for students to read, write and perform basic math and understand basic science.  These rates were in decline for far too long.

Vouchers can improve teacher salary indirectly.  More students in private schools allow them to pay teachers more and to expand, allowing them to hire more teachers.

It also forces public education to pay teachers more to keep qualified teachers in the system.

Market forces are a good thing.

What is your reference that schools were getting worse based on test scores?

You are aware that the Catholic schools pay much less than public schools serving the same communities, right? I'm also pretty sure this is true across all private schools. They pay teachers less.

Is there any research that supports your claim that vouchers will increase the pay of public school teachers? Why do you think teachers unions oppose vouchers? Do you think they oppose getting paid more?

Your last line is telling. You believe market forces will fix everything. Left to a completely free market the gov't doesn't provide public education.

[ATFFL]

Failing is an increasing inability for students to read, write and perform basic math and understand basic science.  These rates were in decline for far too long.

Vouchers can improve teacher salary indirectly.  More students in private schools allow them to pay teachers more and to expand, allowing them to hire more teachers.

It also forces public education to pay teachers more to keep qualified teachers in the system.

Market forces are a good thing.

What is your reference that schools were getting worse based on test scores?

You are aware that the Catholic schools pay much less than public schools serving the same communities, right? I'm also pretty sure this is true across all private schools. They pay teachers less.

Is there any research that supports your claim that vouchers will increase the pay of public school teachers? Why do you think teachers unions oppose vouchers? Do you think they oppose getting paid more?

Your last line is telling. You believe market forces will fix everything. Left to a completely free market the gov't doesn't provide public education.

The teachers union opposes anything that makes them accountable.  They want tenured teachers to be able to sit infront of a class and do nothing without any fear for their job or salary.  The teachers union opposes school choice, because it allows parents to hold them accountable for poor performance.

The teachers unions opposes anything that reduces the power of the union.  Vouchers do that in many, many ways.  It also greatly increases the power of the individual teacher.

Decline of SAT scores

School vouchers and salary

I did not say "market forces solve everything."  I said "
Market forces are a good thing."  There is a vast difference between the two statements.  Nice try at a strawman, but I will not let that pass.

Providing education has always been a government function under the "promote the general welfare" function of government.  When local governments began failing in the sixties something had to be done.  It took 20 years for the feds to get involved. 

With local schools failing something has to be done.  We can either federalize the schools (bad idea) or encourage competition.  Well regulated competition has been shown to be the best growth formula time and time again.  A good voucher program will provide competition between schools.  This will create a market for teachers allowing good teachers to earn the salary they deserve and force poor teachers to improve.

[A18]

Federal involvement in education is illegal. Both of these men are basically pledging to break the oath of office before either of them takes it.

[CollectiveInterest]

tred,

You did notice that your linked SAT scores article referred to 1995 in the future tense, right? You do know your source is a decade old, right?

[ATFFL]

tred,

You did notice that your linked SAT scores article referred to 1995 in the future tense, right? You do know your source is a decade old, right?

Still accurate for information that happened from 1950-1990.

Parts of it are pre-1995, part are from 1998, if I remember correctly.  It has been updated in part.  If you read the whole thing (it will take a while and it does drift off topic so I understand if you don't) it refers to 1997 and early 1998 data.

Scores improved some in the 90s, but it is hard to compare because of the adjustment to scoring that was made in 1995.

Many states abandoned the failed experiments of the mid to late 60s and went back to more traditional education.  They saw an improvement.  Some areas ontinued the failed experiments and saw no improvement.

Worst of all is that most of the experimenting is done on minority students.  This has, in part, artificially widened the achievement gap for minorities.

If you really want to learn about this go to the nearest college with an education program and pick up the newest edition of some texts.  Read a variety of them.  Some spout the NEA line and some oppose it.  Read them all and you will be in a much better position to make informed decisions about the future of public education.

[CollectiveInterest]

tred,

You did notice that your linked SAT scores article referred to 1995 in the future tense, right? You do know your source is a decade old, right?

Scores improved some in the 90s, but it is hard to compare because of the adjustment to scoring that was made in 1995.

So you are acknowledging the best evidence doesn't support your claim that US schools are in decline?

[ATFFL]

tred,

You did notice that your linked SAT scores article referred to 1995 in the future tense, right? You do know your source is a decade old, right?

Scores improved some in the 90s, but it is hard to compare because of the adjustment to scoring that was made in 1995.

So you are acknowledging the best evidence doesn't support your claim that US schools are in decline?

Noooo.  Now you are just making things up.

I am saying that the change in scoring in 1995 may be the reson for the improvement.  There is a lot of reason to believe this.

I finally managed to find what I was looking for on the college boards page.  Took me longer than I thought, but here are the scores

Year............Verbal...................Math
.........Male.Female.Total.Male.Female.Total
1972.531....529.....530..527....489.....509
1973.523....521.....523..525....489.....506
1974.524....520.....521..524....488.....505
1975.515....509.....512..518....479.....498
1976.511....508.....509..520....475.....497
1977.509....505.....507..520....474.....496
1978.511....503.....507..517....474.....494
1979.509....501.....505..516....473.....493
1980.506....498.....502..515....473.....492
1981.508....496.....502..516....473.....492
1982.509....499.....504..516....473.....493
1983.508....498.....503..516....474.....494
1984.511....498.....504..518....478.....497
1985.514....503.....509..522....480.....500
1986.515....504.....509..523....479.....500
1987.512....502.....507..523....481.....501
1988.512....499.....505..521....483.....501
1989.510....498.....504..523....482.....502
1990.505....496.....500..521....483.....501
1991.503....495.....499..520....482.....500
1992.504....496.....500..521....484.....501
1993.504....497.....500..524....484.....503
1994.501....497.....499..523....487.....504
1995.505....502.....504..525....490.....506
1996.507....503.....505..527....492.....508
1997.507....503.....505..530....494.....511
1998.509....502.....505..531....496.....512
1999.509....502.....505..531....495.....511
2000.507....504.....505..533....498.....514
2001.509....502.....506..533....498.....514
2002.507....502.....504..534....500.....516
2003.512....503.....507..537....503.....519
2004.512....504.....508..537....501.....518

The 1980s saw a the scores stop declinging for a while because some schools started providing some answers for their students.  This was mainly due to the way federal government education money worked at the time.  Once it was stopped scores dropped suddenly.

The change in 1995 was from the change in the way the tests were scored.

As NCLB slowly kicks in we are seeing the first real gains in SAT scores in a very long time.

Other standard tests, state run reading tests as an example, show very similar results.

[MODU]

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lol, yeah right. He says that about all his spending programs.

I noticed that as well.  Gibson was right to grill him on that during the debates.