High Authority for Ethics in Voting Bill [Debating] (user search)
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  High Authority for Ethics in Voting Bill [Debating] (search mode)
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Author Topic: High Authority for Ethics in Voting Bill [Debating]  (Read 19852 times)
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« on: November 27, 2009, 11:28:55 AM »

Honorable Senators,
This is the second bill proposed by Hashemite and I to solve the issue of zombie voters. Many of you, during the debate of the Protection of Democracy Act, expressed their sympathy as regards the intent of this bill, but also their doubts concerning the method proposed to deal with it. That's why I worked to propose a different one.
One of the main critic to the previous bill was that zombies could easily circumvent the post number requirement. I have to say that I agree in great part with those critics, and I wrote this bill in order to solve this issue. In general, every problem came from the fact that zombie voting can't be definited "mechanically". The notion of "zombie", even though being objective, needs some case-by-case analysis. The only way to have such analysis, is to have it done by a specialized authority. This authority will receive the powers necessary to decide who is a zombie voters.
Of course, the fact that HAEV will have the power to ban anyone from voting also creates some risk if it reveals to be partisanly biased. We should absolutely avoid this risk, and this bill sets three important protections. First of all, a member shall receive 7 "aye" votes in order to be confirmed, meaning more than one third of all the Senator will accept it. This system will force multipartisan deals, all the more so the authority shall consist in 1 JCPer, 1 PCPer, 1 DAer and one member from another party or independent. Secondly, one member can be banned only if all the four HAEV members agree in banning him : no possibility of partisan bias at all. Finally, every member shall have the possibility to appeal the decision to the Supreme Court, once again to avoid unfair bannings. Honestly, I think all these precautions re excessive, but I guess it's the only way for this to pass.
Honorable Senators, you assured me that the purpose of my previous bill was good and that something needed to b done. Now it's time to prove your good faith. You are free to Amend this bill as you want. But your final vote must be affirmative.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2009, 11:50:56 AM »

My biggest problem with this bill is that it creates unnecessary bureaucracy. Maybe the HAEV should belong to the governors, who are closer to the people.

Also, the HAEV should just make recommendations, which the SoFA should then be able to approve/disapprove. This would better oversight and make it easier for people to file an appeal.

Letting the power to ban people to the SoFA's discretion isn't a good idea IMO. The SoFA's powers are still very great and raising them would make him really dangerous.
As for Governors, their honesty (or their competence) could be compromised as well. Plus, we have plenty of cases of governors getting inactive or amost inactive, and this would be terrible. I know that raising the number of officials can be a problem, but it remains the best solution.


If the president can just veto anyone, then he'll keep vetoing people until only candidates from his party are inserted. 

You seem to be confusing the actual job of President with DWTL's guide on how to be President.
Its a legitimate concern and not even something I would do as president.  I think a provision that should be added that any party that makes up at least 20% of the electoral will be represented if possible

The bill provides that HAEV shall contain one member for each of the three major parties by number of members.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 12:16:59 PM »

Nowhere in the bill does it say anything remotely close to that

It was in the bill I wrote. Seems that Hashemite removed it, and I'd like to know why he did.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2009, 12:54:18 PM »

And by no method of counting can I see three major parties. You can say there are two, or four, or five, but three?

I mean the three biggest. For the simple reason that we have 4 seats and the fourth should not be definited as belonging to a particular party.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2009, 01:19:59 PM »

One presumes the removal is that such a party enforced membership provision would render the committee useless.

I can't really foresee too many voters being adjudged inactive under the proposal as posted, but I'd be very surprised if the committee had any effect on anything if certain parties have guaranteed membership on the body.

This is true.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2009, 05:22:39 PM »

People, this bill is unperfect, true. But most of you are saying that its purpose is good.
Then please propose some amendments, and debate about then. it's up to you now. Just don't do nothing.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2009, 05:28:38 PM »

How is the Supreme Court to decide whether a removal was legitimate or not? On what basis?

My purpose was to make so that the Supreme Court could annul a HAEV decision in case of blatant partisan/personal bias.

Anyways, work on it guys. You are Senators, I'm not.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 12:46:39 PM »

Bump.
Don't let it die once again.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2009, 07:19:00 AM »

I have difficulties to believe than a party will accept to deregister his members.

I still want an answer to that obvious problem.

I think you are right, if it's what you want to hear. Now, should I also propose all the Amendmets needed ? You are 10 and none of you has done for the moment.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2009, 01:21:00 PM »

I agree with almost everything, except the change to 3.2. Giving the power to overtun HAEV's decisions to the Senate would make decisions too partisan IMO, whereas the Supreme Court is supposed to be more independent.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2009, 01:40:40 PM »

I agree with almost everything, except the change to 3.2. Giving the power to overtun HAEV's decisions to the Senate would make decisions too partisan IMO, whereas the Supreme Court is supposed to be more independent.

I understand that concern, but I don't see how the Supreme Court could rule on that matter. The Supreme Court is there to interpret law, and I don't see any legal basis to rule someone sufficiently active or entirely inactive.

Let's put it that way. The law says that the HAEV shall not take decisions that are partisanly/personally biased. Therefore, the Supreme Court shall be able to interpret the law regarding a particular case, saying if this particular case shows some of the bias outlined by the law. Just change the bill to make it clear. Wink
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 02:05:23 PM »

Both problems need to be dealt, but we shouldn't make it fail again just because people currently lost attention.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2009, 02:14:56 PM »

Both problems need to be dealt, but we shouldn't make it fail again just because people currently lost attention.

If Hashemite and Marokai don't mind, I would like to request a vote on my amendment, just to see how the Senate feels about it.

Fine wit that. But something needs to be done on the last clause.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 03:02:39 PM »

I'd like to "propose" an Amendment (obviously, since I have no power to do, some Senator should propose it).

Quote
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 12:00:26 PM »

I have a problem with a delay of only a week to appeal.

One week is a quite long time, actually. Making it last more would make the inactivity declaration too void.


Quote
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Well, that's an important concern. I guess the better way to handle this is, for the moment, to rely on the tolerance of future HAEV members, who will let users some delay before declaring them inactive.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2009, 06:21:37 AM »

Quote
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Well, that's an important concern. I guess the better way to handle this is, for the moment, to rely on the tolerance of future HAEV members, who will let users some delay before declaring them inactive.

No, I mean than the poster was really inactive for months, so the HAEV declared him inactive.

Six months later, the poster wants to come back in Atlasia. What is happening?

You pointed out an important thing. Anyone who is removed from Registered Voters list can re-register immediately thereafter. It's exactly as if you didn't vote for 3 consecutive elections.
The only inconvenient is that you'll have to wait 10 days before voting. But well, it's not so grave. Wink
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 05:44:00 PM »

Alright I think a good case can be made for some zombies, like the guy who just registered with the ARC after 50 posts and then when asked what to do was instructed to wait until told to vote

Does that mean you support this bill ? It would be pretty unexpected, bu that would mean Hamilton would've had some positive consequences... Tongue
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 05:47:41 PM »

Alright I think a good case can be made for some zombies, like the guy who just registered with the ARC after 50 posts and then when asked what to do was instructed to wait until told to vote

Does that mean you support this bill ? It would be pretty unexpected, bu that would mean Hamilton would've had some positive consequences... Tongue
As I have told Hash a lot of times, I support zombie reform but troll reform is just as important.  I just don't see any of these as practical.

Troll reform will be dealt with soon, too.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 05:50:17 PM »

None of these reforms will accomplish anything good for me.

Fixed.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 06:16:12 PM »

The fact is zombie is posting too little, trolling results in posting too much.  How can you have a solution that fixes both?

We'll have one solution for each one. But the thing you should learn is that the only way to improve things is to accept to do some compromises and to support bills you can see as unperfect.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 03:52:43 AM »

5 Ayes, 2 Nays, 1 Abstaining. This bill has been amended.

Now, was there another amendment presented for a vote, or was it accepted as friendly?

I think the bill is pretty good now. Has some Senator any particular concern ?
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 12:01:10 PM »

  I preferred the bill in its original form, with the appeal leading to the court. 

It has indeed been restaured.
With the current bill, nobody could be arbitrarily removed, the guarantees are extremely solid.
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 12:40:25 PM »

Bump.

Please tell us if you have any precise concern, and if you have propose Amendment to improve the bill. Smiley
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2009, 11:19:02 AM »

It just seems to be too dangerous of a ground to tread... I don't plan on staying "active" here forever, that doesn't mean I don't want to vote for the candidates I approve of. Mr. Moderate once said the same thing, he went absent for a while and only recently became more active. I don't want a partisan board determining who is and is not a "zombie" unless there is a representative from every major party included.

If such an authority is established, it would need to set up coherent guidelines that would make it clear what the process for this is. The issue with making party seats is that this is simply artificial polypartisanship and only creates deadlock.

IMO, the Supreme Court is already a strong "guideline". In fact, this bills give it almost full powers on this domain.

If anyone is interested in setting more precise guidelines, I'd like him to propose an amendment, so that we can discuss on it. Wink
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Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,960
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2009, 12:40:38 PM »

I'm sorry, but three Democrats are sitting on the Supreme Court... I honestly don't want them judging who are and aren't "active" voters.

I'm sure than Sam Spade is happy to know that...

Sam Spade is a Democrat and always has been.

Roll Eyes


Can someone explain in a short paragraph what the exact procedure is for this body, from choosing membership to the actual revocation of citizenship.

[quote]High Authority for Ethics in Voting Bill

The High Authority for Ethics in Voting (HAEV) is hereby established.

Section 1 : Nomination Process and Requirements

1. The High Authority for Ethics in Voting shall be composed of three members.
2. One member of the HAEV shall be nominated every two months. If there are already 3 members in office, the most recently nominated member shall replace the longest-serving member. Immediately after passage of this bill, all three members shall be elected simultaneously.
3. The President shall nominate candidates to the HAEV with the advice and consent of the Senate.
4. A voting booth shall be opened in the Atlas Fantasy Government board immediately after a candidate to the HAEV has been suggested. Senators shall vote "aye" if they approve of the nomination of a candidate, "nay" if they disagree and "abstain" if they have no opinion. Every candidate receiving 7 or more "aye" votes shall become a member of the HAEV.

Section 2 : Role and Powers

1. In accordance with Article V, Section 2, Clause 3 of the Atlasian Constitution, the HAEV shall have the power to declare an Atlasian Citizen inactive, and therefore to remove the registration in question from the Registered Voters List effective one week after its decision.
2. Any Atlasian Citizen who is not declared inactive by the HAEV shall be considered as active, unless Atlasian law provides otherwise.
3. The HAEV shall deliberate in a public and dedicated thread located in the Atlas Fantasy Government board.
4. An Atlasian Citizen shall be declared inactive by the HAEV only if all three members express their agreement in considering he or she as inactive.

Section 3: Possibility of Appeal

Whereas:
-The notion of "inactive" specified in Article V, Section 2, Clause 3 of the Atlasian Constitution can be subject to different interpretations, and that the HAEV may potentially abuse this ambiguity by declaring as "inactive" an Atlasian citizen who should not be considered so.
- The Supreme Court's role is to interpret the Constitution in the case when its formulation is ambiguous.

1. An Atlasian Citizen who has been declared inactive by the HAEV shall have the right to appeal said declaration in the week following the HAEV's decision.
2. In the case previously specified, the Supreme Court shall have the power to annul the decision of the HAEV. The procedure used shall be the same as for any court case.
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