Update Thread and Other Ramblings by BushOklahoma

[J-Mann]

I'm definitely thinking no earlier than October.  That gives us roughly 8 1/2 months to get to know each other better and make sure this is definitely what we want to do.  I want to make sure that we're sure that we're sure.  Our main focus right now is Valentine's Day 2010.  We've got a few options that we can do, and we still have two full weekends between now and then to think about it.  To be honest, while I am thinking of this fall, its not a major thought right now.  I just want to get to know her better right now and then if things develop between us, then we can head in that direction.  That's why I am saying no earlier than October to give us the entire Spring and Summer to just date without having any hardcore planning.

Jeff! Don't even think about thinking about proposing! Good grief, man ... there's no reason to put timelines on things like this. It only leads to letdowns. I'm just repeating what others have said, but your next date is your focus. Not Valentine's Day, not after Labor Day ... just the next time you see each other.

And be yourself -- no scripting the date beyond deciding on a place to go. Let her get to know you for you, and you get to know the real her. And girls who have never dated before may have really high expectations -- at this point, if any talk of "the future" comes out of her mouth (unless it's in reference to career goals), shut it down immediately.

[J-Mann]

Yeah but our parents were a different generation.

The AVERAGE age for marriage for guys, in the U.S., is about 28 years old, and that's not a statistic that adjusts particularly well to trends of marrying later.  If you meet someone when you're 27, marrying when you're 29 would be completely reasonable and place you well in the mainstream.    

It IS a very different culture in the Plains states, so if BushOK happens to feel any pressure to be married off by now, stewing over it is understandable, if not warranted. There are a lot of people in Kansas ... and in other surrounding states ... that are married in their very early-20s. On average, even the ones that wait until 27-28 to get married have been in a solid relationship for five years or so. It's awfully rare to find someone in their 30s that hasn't been married in the Great Plains.

So for guys like me and BushOK who are both in their late-20s and seem to have no definite prospects, there's a certain underlying pressure to "git 'r dun," so to speak. It's most likely in our heads, but when everyone around your age has been married for years and aunts constantly ask about "why you're not married yet" at family reunions, it gets a little grating.

It's perfectly reasonable if he feels like he has to move fast, but it's HIGHLY recommended that he doesn't act on those feelings. I got out of a "I HAVE to get married ASAP" funk a little over a year ago and realized that I don't have things all that bad. I keep everything I earn (or only pay my own bills) and I do what I want when I want. There are a lot of those poor suckers who rushed into it at 22 or 23-years-old who get lead around by their wives now.

If you haven't found the right one, it's not worth giving anyone else a try ... just wait and be happy in the meantime.

[J-Mann]

Yeah, no fast food! Not even if she says that's what she wants!

Isn't there an Old Chicago or a Rock Bottom in Midwest City?

[J-Mann]

Smart man. IHOP ain't bad for a second date ... it's relaxed, it can be fun but it's better than fast food, for sure.

[J-Mann]

Good thing he's not taking any of you picky bastards out!

IHOP would not be my thing, but I get the feeling that BushOK and his date are going to be alright with it. And it is relaxed. There's no pressure to fix yourself up to go out to IHOP. If they're comfortable with it, then it's going to go just fine.

Actually, it's a pretty decent way to filter out dates ... don't blow a lot of money trying to impress them on dates where you barely know each other: let her get to know you, make sure she's going out with you for your personality and that you're not trying to overcompensate by falling into the typical first / second / third date traps. The best first dates are ones that don't feel forced in any way.

I prefer quirky places or holes-in-the-wall to somewhere like IHOP, but the general idea is the same.

And don't forget, BushOK -- it's not just about you trying to impress her (as most guys tend to think). She's got to impress you back. The last two women I dated couldn't pass the test, and I cut them loose after a couple of mediocre dates. Don't be afraid to do the same.

[J-Mann]

I think you've got even more incentive to lose weight now! A good early date idea is to cook together ... find something that's semi-difficult to make and give it a shot. You learn a lot about each other in situations like that: whether she's a follower or leader, a planner or someone who dives into things, messy or clean or OCD ... it can be a fun activity.

That way you can keep your meals healthy for you, too!

[J-Mann]

1) BushOK -- don't wait for her to offer to cook! That's really nice and convenient if she's into the servant thing, but you can make a cheap and fun date out of deciding to cook something together. Suggest it! Pick out a recipe that takes an hour or so of preparation (and maybe another hour or so of cooking) and go for it! Trust me, it's enjoyable to cook with someone you're getting to know. If you need suggestions on recipes, let me know.

2) She may not be a very affectionate person in public, but a lot of people -- men and women -- don't like public displays of affection. Don't take that as a bad sign. Some people just don't want their feelings broadcast to everyone else.

3) WAY too early for the L-word to enter the equation. She doesn't love you yet. And you don't love her. You can be close, you can enjoy each others' company, but after two dates, there's no love. When you feel it, you'll know. I think know this already, and you've got the right idea ... take things one date at a time and SLOW ... but keep that ever-present in your mind.

4) Keep working on your weight loss! If I were closer to Oklahoma, I'd offer to be your personal trainer and shed another 75 pounds off of you in no time. But keep working at it ... trust me, a healthy, in-shape body is worth it!

[J-Mann]

Light travels more slowly than your relationship with Tiffanye!!

[J-Mann]

BushOK...you don't happen to be related to Mike Naso, do you?

Nope.  Not related... Anyway, the date went great and we decided to go a hole-in-the-wall type diner in NE Oklahoma County in the town of Jones.  We came back and played a couple games of UNO and then talked with her mother for a little while and watched the end of LOST season premier.  Friday, we're thinking about going to see a movie together, do something different for us.

Well, that sounds like you had a perfectly nice evening. I won't lie ... it seems like it's a bit early to be meeting her mom, but given that you've known each other for 18 months or so, it's an offense I can overlook

I would, however, recommend AGAINST seeing a movie in a theater this Friday, unless you want to be totally clichéd and spend most of your date not talking to each other. If you want to do something different, cook dinner together and then watch a well-known movie at either your place or her's ... that way you can spend some time working together and then do the movie thing without feeling the pressure to pay TOO much attention to it.

[J-Mann]

No kissing on the first date? What is this, Mayberry?

^^^^^^^^^^^^

However, I get the general point of what BushOK is saying -- physical intimacy (of any kind) on the first date may say something about your intentions for going on the date in the first place. Not kissing is extreme though. People who are going to be in a relationship need to connect on various levels -- physical attraction is one of those levels.

And with that being said, I prefer sex on the first date (for more reasons than JUST the physical aspect of it). That's easier to accomplish with men than with women, though.

[J-Mann]

One side note, I did find out Saturday that she doesn't care whether I am a Democrat or a Republican.  She brought up that conversation saying that she found out that I voted for President Obama.

How did she find that out?

I figured she assumed because of his liberal attitudes toward sex

[J-Mann]

It does seem like this relationship is going well. But I'd still be careful about throwing around "I love her" and "she loves me" or "we need each other" at this stage. You're infatuated with each other, and that's great -- that's how a lot of relationships get started, after all. But you don't love each other yet. Love happens when the infatuation dies down and you care for each other more, not less; when you're more interested in each other, not less. Love happens after your first fight, your first genuine disagreement -- love happens when you can get over those times and be closer for them. Unless you're holding out on us, neither the infatuation has worn off yet nor have you had your first knock-down, drag-out fight ... you're too early in this thing to be throwing around words like "love" and "need."

That being said, I'm genuinely happy that you've found someone that you're interested in. You're undoubtedly having a great Valentine's Day with someone you feel is special!

[J-Mann]

Valentine's Weekend 2010 is over and it was indeed a wonderful day!!  Starting off with an inch of snow this morning to make for a postcard like scene outside, and then a wonderful morning service at church with my girlfriend by my side.  Went home and took a nap and then went to church this evening and then back to her house for some of her mother's spaghetti (a wonderful delicacy, I must say!!).  Susan and her mother made me some cookies for Valentine's Day and Susan got me a stuffed tiger and not one, but TWO, Valentine's Day cards.  I got her a teddy bear and a card.  Nothing too fancy, but she really enjoyed it, I think!!  We're now ready to move on from Valentine's Day and work our way toward St Patrick's Day and Easter.  She does have some Irish heritage in her, so March 17 should mean a little more than in previous years.  We are looking forward, though, to going through this Easter preparation season called Lent together which starts this Wednesday, February 17.  I will say that we have started talking about the future more and more and where and when do we go from here.  We both agree that any advancement won't happen until late this summer at the earliest or more likely mid-fall.  No wedding would happen until the summer of 2011.  We need time to get to know each other more, so that's why the tentative dates are so far in the future, but we have talked about where does this go from here and when.  I respect her too much, though, to propose to her any earlier than August or September.

Goddamnit, BushOK, stop talking about proposing and putting timelines on it! Trust me ... you could have a disagreement next week and end up hating her guts! Even tentative dates at this point are ridiculously stupid.

I'm glad you had a good Valentine's Day, though

[J-Mann]

Wedding in 2010, mark my word.

If it happens, it probably won't be the worst thing in the world.  I just hope the ring comes out at a minimum in 4 months though.  My parents were 3 mos. btw.

I'm still thinking probably 2011, but we'll see.  For now, we're just enjoying each other's company and getting to know each other.

And that's the way you should keep it, for the time being! I'm certainly not saying that love can't blossom quickly, but based on your last experience, I've gathered that you fall both fast and hard for women that you're dating. Infatuation can be blinding ... take it from someone who knows!

I thought of you as I was going through some old documents on my computer the other night. I found a letter that I'd written to someone I "loved" after only a few weeks. I told him about how great it was to meet someone like him, how much our first date and our first night together meant and that all I wanted was to get to know him better and spend more time with him, even though he lived halfway across the country. The first night we were together, he told me (in his heavily accented broken English) that I might fall in love with him, and I told him that I thought he was right.

Reading that with the benefit of hindsight is, if not embarrassing, at least a wake-up call that initial infatuation can make things seem so much better than they are. In the following months, we got bored with each other; our conversations grew stale and there was no new ground to cover; I'd travel 1,500 miles to see him and he'd act like it was an inconvenience; I'd ignore his calls; we got physically violent with each other at least once and fought about the stupidest things. The relationship ended after about five months.

The point is, if you hit it off with someone on the first few dates, you can fool yourself into thinking that things are so much better than they may actually be in the long run. And if you start making yourself believe that "We're totally in love and meant for each other, and I need her and she needs me, and I'm going to propose on this date, and we'll be married by this date," you put so much thought into planning for a hypothetical future that you ignore matters that need tending to in the present. Additionally, the higher you build up the relationship, the longer -- and more devastating -- the fall when it doesn't work out. Best to get yourselves to the summit gradually.

I'm not saying that relationships can't materialize into something much more in a short time frame; I am saying that they usually don't. Given your history with your ex-fiancé and general inexperience with the whole dating game, I would advise you to keep it slow, make sure that the two of you can get through the tough / boring / angry times together and care for each other more, and make surprises a part of the relationship. Spontaneity and fun will strengthen and keep your relationship interesting far more than hypothetical marriage plans ever will.

[J-Mann]

Well, you're doing absolutely everything that some of us advised you against. Things have a tendency to go well early on in relationships ... they're only tested after you've spent a certain amount of time together (and disregard the previous 19 months; I don't get the feeling that either of you were really getting to know each other during that time, since no one made any sort of a move until your friend set you up).

You will disagree with each other about something eventually. How will you handle that? How will she? Will either of you speak your minds and get things off your chest, or will you be passive-aggressive about your differences until they blow up and seriously threaten the relationship?

How close is she with her parents? How close are you with yours? Will her family or yours interfere with the relationship to a degree that makes one or the other of you uncomfortable? How will you handle that?

What are your financial situations? Are you prepared to handle a marriage if one of you (or both of you) were to lose your jobs shortly thereafter? What are your career goals? Do they mesh?

If she has a stroke tomorrow and becomes a vegetable, is she still the woman of your dreams? Will you stay by her side then? Harsh, but it's a valid point ... marriage is a serious commitment.

How do the two of you feel about sex? And I don't mean the whole "wait till marriage" thing. What are your fantasies? What are hers? Are you scared or nervous about your first time? Is she? (These are things you damn well better know before marrying a person.)

Dive into every political issue. Talk about money. Talk about your goals, your fears, your hopes and dreams. Talk about kids and family. Talk about pets. Talk about annoying habits and be open about things that bother you about each other, not just the things you like. Talk about how you solve problems and come to decisions about things, both petty and serious.  For God's sake, kiss each other! On the lips!

Those are all questions and discussions that HAVE to be answered before you bumble into a marriage based on infatuation. And that's exactly what it is at this point. Infatuation. Afleitch has a really, really good point -- you have chosen to share intimate details of your life with those of us on this forum, and through that you have proven that you fall fast and hard for women willing to give you the time of day. Many of us think that the enthusiasm you have for this relationship is, while different from the last, simply a matter of being relatively new to it. That's understandably exciting, but hardly enough on which to base a lifelong commitment. You've said that you respect her so much that you won't even kiss her yet ... then respect her enough to REALLY get to know each other before locking yourselves together for life, taking the chance that there were stones left unturned.

Before you spend money on yet another ring, and before you both decide to go down this path together, just talk it through -- between the two of you and with those you trust most. In your case, you should specifically seek the advice of church members and clergy that you trust. Be honest with them about what you're feeling and tell them to be honest with you ... it's unlikely you'll have any sane, older mentor tell you that five weeks' worth of good dates have adequately prepped you for making marriage plans.

And this is the last I'll say on it. If you're committed, I'm happy for you; you know my opinion and advice on this well enough by now, and while I'd urge you not to discount it, I'm not always right. Just don't fool yourself. Ask the right questions. Cover the right issues. Truly take the time to explore the relationship. You don't truly know someone until you've been through bad times with them; their demeanor and their reactions can speak volumes about how a relationship may truly play out. A game of Scrabble with Grandma and a couple of wholesome nights on the town DO NOT make a marriage.

[J-Mann]

Now, by moving the wedding back a few months, we will be able to set a date and then put it on the back burner, and plan for it without rushing and stressing and still giving us plenty of time to get to know and enjoy each other.  We've only really agreed on about three details of the wedding, and those are the preacher and venue and a small, intimate wedding.

I know I said I'd shut up ... but why are you engaged on any level -- unofficially or otherwise -- if you don't know all there is to know about each other? Engagements and subsequent marriages aren't the most opportune times for people to learn new things about each other.

[J-Mann]

This friend promised me she would help me find someone and introduced me to Susan in August 2008.  We dated for about a month, but she got scared somehow so she dropped me in September.

[J-Mann]

Apologies in advance, but I couldn't resist:

Desire to Ejaculate Motivates Local Christian to Wed

[J-Mann]

To risk eating my words, we wouldn't be ready by then.  We're thinking definitely a 2011 wedding, or, possibly an Easter 2012 wedding.  We have several of things we need to discuss and plan on before we enter into marriage.  Marriage will happen, but we need to figure out how to take care of her ailing mother and grandmother which won't be an overnight decision.  Plus, while we want a small, intimate wedding, we don't want to skimp on it, because this will be the only wedding of our lives as we are going to remove the word divorce from our vocabulary.  i think we can get it done by Easter 2011, but we'll see.

Like what? Perhaps getting to know each other a bit?