Pro-lifers only

[President Mitt]

pro-death

lol

[JSojourner]

I'm sorry for horning in on a pro-lifers only thread, but I have to say this.

"Safe, legal and rare" is not just a catchphrase; it points to very real issues.

Let's say Mr. and Mrs. Y, who have very strong religious committments and believe that abortion is the taking of a human life, have a single 19-year old daughter who still lives with them.  Their daughter becomes pregnant, but decides out of fear that she does not want to tell her parents about the pregnancy, and that she does not want to carry the pregnancy to term.  Secretly, the daughter has an abortion.  Now, which of these two alternatives would Mr. and Mrs. Y prefer; that their daughter have the abortion performed by medically untrained friends without medical equipment in those friends' unsantized basement, or that their daughter be in the care of licensed physicians in adequately supplied and sanitized facilities?  Were Mr. and Mrs. Y to find out about these events after the fact, they surely would not approve of the abortion, but at least could rest assured that their daughter was given the best possible care in the process and the risks to her own health were minimized.  That is why abortion should be safe and legal, because regardless of what anyone believes about the rights of unborn fetuses, the 19 year-old girl should not have her own health jepordized under the circumstances, and the state has the duty to ensure that medical care is available for her, as a citizen and a legal adult.

Why should abortions be rare?  Because, regardless of what anyone believes about the rights of unborn fetuses, the causes that lead to abortion, the process itself, and the psychological and social consequences of abortion are all terrible.  It would be better for everyone if we could minimize abortions as much as possible.

Safe, legal and rare is a good forumula for this issue.

Exactly.  The actual "catchphrase" or crutchphrase is "sanctity of human life".  It only means something when you take it seriously.  And criminalizing abortion yet supporting public policies that make abortion more, rather than less, likely is exactly what robs those who cry "sanctity of life" of any merit or heft on this issue.

I am encouraged to see at least some opponents of a woman's right't to choose are willing to stand up and be counted in favor of executing them or putting them in prison for decades...and, I presume, willing to raise taxes to finance that experiment.  It restores some consistency to the debate and to their positions. I'll say one thing about DWTL when he was here -- he may not have shared my position on choice, but he was willing to put abortion providers and abortive women on the execution gurney.

[Torie]

Responding to JS, one riposte from those who think some abortions should be illegal (and my opinion is that some abortions should be illegal) to those who think all abortions should be legal because putting the  ex-mother in jail is just too impractical, Draconian and unjust , is to limit any sanction to suspending or pulling the license of any doctor who performs such an illegal abortion, and not punishing the woman at all. That is my position in fact. I further would not punish the woman for having a back alley illegal abortion; only persons with a professional license who help effect it should be punished. Some might argue that this position of my is not entirely logical consistent, but sometimes the most practical and reasonable and just public policy is not necessarily entirely logically consistent. It is one of the ironies of living on this mortal coil in my opinion.

[JSojourner]

Responding to JS, one riposte from those who think some abortions should be illegal (and my opinion is that some abortions should be illegal) to those who think all abortions should be legal because putting the  ex-mother in jail is just too impractical, Draconian and unjust , is to limit any sanction to suspending or pulling the license of any doctor who performs such an illegal abortion, and not punishing the woman at all. That is my position in fact. I further would not punish the woman for having a back alley illegal abortion; only persons with a professional license who help effect it should be punished. Some might argue that this position of my is not entirely logical consistent, but sometimes the most practical and reasonable and just public policy is not necessarily entirely logically consistent. It is one of the ironies of living on this mortal coil in my opinion.

Torie, I certainly see the sense in this and -- what's more -- I suspect you would be more open to the concept of making abortion rare (at least in part) via social services, birth control and government intervention.

I do think the matter of pulling a doctor's medical license can be considered.  But if all or most abortions are criminalized (even some?  I don't know...), then I suspect we will see relatively few doctors involved in the process.

Of course, the wealthy in need of this procedure will simply go outside the U.S.  The rest will seek their abortion where they can find it.  While I am confident we're not talking about an old crone with a stick, I am hardly persuaded that there will be many licensed medical personnel doing them.  I'm simply not persuaded. Of course, you know the old saying.  "There are none so Catholic as converted Protestants."  And given that I was once among the hate-filled rabble screaming at women and workers outside a Michigan Avenue Women's Health Clinic in Chicago for several years, my intransigence could be related, at least slightly, to repentance and remorse.  LOL

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

Just like idiotic is saying you can't be pro-choice and anti-death penalty

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

Just like idiotic is saying you can't be pro-choice and anti-death penalty

Euh, no. Pro-lifes who come with 'life is sacred' have to be logical with themselves and to apply it all the way, or to shut this slogan and this thought and to find something else.

[Bono]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

Just like idiotic is saying you can't be pro-choice and anti-death penalty

Euh, no. Pro-lifes who come with 'life is sacred' have to be logical with themselves and to apply it all the way, or to shut this slogan and this thought and to find something else.

Innocent life is not the same as the life of a convicted murderer.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I love the argument some make that you can't be pro-life and for the death penalty.  Like the two have anything to do with each other.

Just like idiotic is saying you can't be pro-choice and anti-death penalty

Euh, no. Pro-lifes who come with 'life is sacred' have to be logical with themselves and to apply it all the way, or to shut this slogan and this thought and to find something else.

Innocent life is not the same as the life of a convicted murderer.

That's what I said in my 1st intervention here, there is the 'a baby is innocent' bit. Then, just give up 'life is sacred'. Just for the sake of logic.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

 Abortion should be heavily regulated and taxed, and the money from that tax should go to support crisis pregnancy centers.

[hcallega]

Abortion should be totally illegal IMO. But I would be happy to simply repeal Roe v. Wade or ban abortions except in the case of rape or incest.

As far as punishment, I believe both the doctor and woman should get life imprisonment. Personally I believe strongly in basing government on a culture of life. We already have most of those provisions in place (i.e. free public education, social security, etc.). I would advocate banning the death penalty as well and also taking the government out of the embryonic stem cell research game.

[Bo]

Abortion should be totally illegal IMO. But I would be happy to simply repeal Roe v. Wade or ban abortions except in the case of rape or incest.

As far as punishment, I believe both the doctor and woman should get life imprisonment. Personally I believe strongly in basing government on a culture of life. We already have most of those provisions in place (i.e. free public education, social security, etc.). I would advocate banning the death penalty as well and also taking the government out of the embryonic stem cell research game.

Are you in favor of abortion is cases of maternal life, maternal health, and birth defects (both minor and severe)? Also, are you completely against stem-cell research?

[Coburn In 2012]

Abortion should be totally illegal IMO. But I would be happy to simply repeal Roe v. Wade or ban abortions except in the case of rape or incest.

As far as punishment, I believe both the doctor and woman should get life imprisonment. Personally I believe strongly in basing government on a culture of life. We already have most of those provisions in place (i.e. free public education, social security, etc.). I would advocate banning the death penalty as well and also taking the government out of the embryonic stem cell research game.

Are you in favor of abortion is cases of maternal life, maternal health, and birth defects (both minor and severe)? Also, are you completely against stem-cell research?

no no no and yes