England Remains Catholic (user search)
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  England Remains Catholic (search mode)
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Author Topic: England Remains Catholic  (Read 14425 times)
12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« on: February 14, 2010, 03:42:48 PM »

It's hard to say.  While the natural balance of power problems in Europe would exist regardless of Catholic/Protestant identity (being mutually Catholic certainly did not prevent tension between France and the Hapsburgs) without the counterweight provided by England, it would have been difficult for Protestants to remain in power, at least in the Netherlands and the Rhine Valley.  The Dutch couldn't last a week without the help of the English, so likely would have either moderated their Protestant leanings, or "cleansed" themselves their Protestant leaders, outright.

The primary different that you would see, from a grand strategic standpoint, would be the longevity of the English/Spanish alliance against France.  Far from creating peace, or being the ruin of France, the French court likely would have sought opportunities for either alliances, or conquest to the east, across the great European Plain. This could have possibly created a situation in which we would see a French boarder on the Rhine or beyond, as other central European powers increasing understood their interests as being with their fellow continentals against the periphery powers.

The Council of Trent (or an equivalent) would likely have happened anyway, as I highly doubt that Henry's support, and the extra granted complacency granted to the Church hierarchy would have quelled Protestantism outright.  In fact, you might have seen a Church more willing to deal, since there would have been no bunker mentality (vernacular coming earlier, perhaps).  You likely still would have seen movements like the Puritans anyway... and its hard to say they would have been persecuted more under a Catholic regime.

A Catholic England would not have changed the conflicted nature of Europe, that was a given.  Therefore, it would not have changed the development of technology, the exploration of the New World, or the nature of the Enlightenment in any fundamental way.

Irish history might not have been such a tragedy.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 05:41:14 PM »

One possible ramification would be that a France buffeted by a Anglo-Spanish Catholic alliance and most of its traditional allies becoming Protestant might have established a Church of France with a Protestant "Pope" in Avignon.

I considered that, but ultimately threw it in the "no way" bin.  The nature of Protestantism in France was both too weak, and too radical for the French majority to entertain the notion throwing the Catholic Church overboard.  Also, while France has had a long history of anti-clericalism, that has often times been accompanied with a strong ultramontain attitude.  

Besides, surrounded by enemies, their worst play would have been to split with Rome, since that would have surely resulted in their destruction.  They would have been vastly better off doing everything they could to curry the favor of Rome.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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Posts: 20,584
Ukraine


« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 10:21:10 PM »
« Edited: February 14, 2010, 10:25:58 PM by Supersoulty »

As I always feel it necessary to inform people, when discussing topics like this, bibles and liturgies in vernacular did exist prior to the emergence of Protestantism.  They were not plentiful, because translation was a huge problem... you have to keep in mind that the original Vulgate was a massive undertaking in an era where you might have one or two people, at most, who were expert scribes in the both the original texts and the local language.

The Catholic Churches primary hang up with vernacular bibles was not some none-sense about how they thought the word of God could only be in Latin, or how they didn't want the common, unwashed masses knowing the text.  Rather, they objected to unauthorized versions, that had no verification on translation to ensure accuracy.

When, in the 1950's, the Catholic Church finally did decide to spearhead an effort to create a mass produced, definitive vernacular translation, the existing ones (like the Old KJV that the idiot brigade swears by) were shown to be woefully inaccurate... and the people who assembled the KJV were supposed to be "scholars".

Before the NAB could be put together, the Vatican used old, authorized translations as the basis for their first release of English Bibles.  I have one of these books.  The citation for the New Testament is from the English College of Rheims and is dated 1582.
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 11:18:51 PM »
« Edited: February 14, 2010, 11:22:58 PM by Supersoulty »

Are there any implications with regard to the United States?  Would there still have been thirteen colonies situated along the Atlantic seaboard?  

There would be differences of course.  No Maryland, since there would be no need to establish a colony for Catholics.  If Virginia keeps the name it'll be named after the Virgin Mary, not Elizabeth.

New Netherland might get established with Spanish blessing if the Netherlands remain content under Habsburg rule.

You actually might still have Pennsylvania and Massachusetts established as Puritan colonies.

The real question is what happens to the French and Portuguese.  Without allies in the British crown would Portugal even decide to go fully independent again?  With Spain and England dominating the sea routes, and French interests in Central Europe (as stipulated in my scenario) what, if any, empire would France have overseas?
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12th Doctor
supersoulty
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Ukraine


« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2010, 10:52:10 PM »

Many English Puritans and Quakers end up in places relatively tolerant of (Christian) minorities -- like Russia and Poland. There would be some strange city names in the Volga Valley.

Why would they not have simply gone to America?  Those groups didn't come to the U.S. because there was so much tolerance in England.  They were hated in England, because once all was said and done, the only major change in the Anglican Church was lack of acceptance of the Pope... it didn't make the situation better for Puritans, who wanted to destroy all vestiges of Catholicism, or Quakers who had a combination of plain and strange practices, but were accepting of all religions.
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