Should NATO be disbanded?

[JSojourner]

Yes, NATO's reason for existence disappeared twenty years ago.

An historic moment in Atlas history.  I agree with Libertas. 

Even though I believe in firm and fierce retaliation for attacks like 9/11...and though I would certainly welcome the participation of any nation willing to aid in the capture of the mass murderers...NATO is a largely useless organization. 

Well, check that.  I see some sense in a European peacekeeping alliance, but one involving European nations and not relying on American/Canadian military or financial muscle.  This was my (very unpopular) position when Clinton joined us to the Balkan peacekeeping effort.  How was this an American sphere of influence?  Why couldn't France, Britain and the rest run the show and get the job done?  (I think they would have done just fine.)

That said, I gotta be honest.  I've never seen a military operation so expected to fail turn out so successfully.  And bloodlessly.

[JSojourner]

Yes, NATO's reason for existence disappeared twenty years ago.

An historic moment in Atlas history.  I agree with Libertas. 

Even though I believe in firm and fierce retaliation for attacks like 9/11...and though I would certainly welcome the participation of any nation willing to aid in the capture of the mass murderers...NATO is a largely useless organization. 

Well, check that.  I see some sense in a European peacekeeping alliance, but one involving European nations and not relying on American/Canadian military or financial muscle.  This was my (very unpopular) position when Clinton joined us to the Balkan peacekeeping effort.  How was this an American sphere of influence?  Why couldn't France, Britain and the rest run the show and get the job done?  (I think they would have done just fine.)

That said, I gotta be honest.  I've never seen a military operation so expected to fail turn out so successfully.  And bloodlessly.

Careful now, I might start to like you.

It's been known to happen.  But I promise to back some big government welfare program in short order!  ;-)

Nah, I am not an interventionist but I am a hawk when the country is attacked.  And I hate to say it, but I am still guided by the old-fashioned notion that war should be hell.  Not because I believe in retribution.  But because, like Robert E. Lee, I believe "it is a good thing war is so terrible, lest men grow too fond of it."

[JSojourner]

Yes, NATO's reason for existence disappeared twenty years ago.

An historic moment in Atlas history.  I agree with Libertas. 

Even though I believe in firm and fierce retaliation for attacks like 9/11...and though I would certainly welcome the participation of any nation willing to aid in the capture of the mass murderers...NATO is a largely useless organization. 

Well, check that.  I see some sense in a European peacekeeping alliance, but one involving European nations and not relying on American/Canadian military or financial muscle.  This was my (very unpopular) position when Clinton joined us to the Balkan peacekeeping effort.  How was this an American sphere of influence?  Why couldn't France, Britain and the rest run the show and get the job done?  (I think they would have done just fine.)

That said, I gotta be honest.  I've never seen a military operation so expected to fail turn out so successfully.  And bloodlessly.

Careful now, I might start to like you.

It's been known to happen.  But I promise to back some big government welfare program in short order!  ;-)

Nah, I am not an interventionist but I am a hawk when the country is attacked.  And I hate to say it, but I am still guided by the old-fashioned notion that war should be hell.  Not because I believe in retribution.  But because, like Robert E. Lee, I believe "it is a good thing war is so terrible, lest men grow too fond of it."

I'm the same way.  I think that we were initially justified in going to Afghanistan, in order to anally rape Osama bin Laden (not literally).  However, we are not justified in remaining in order to stabilize the country, or whatever.

Pretty much agreed.  Nation building worked after WW 2 but there were actual nations in place before the devastation.  I could support US involved as an equal partner in certain projects like Haiti or Afgahanistan.  But I would like to know when other rich nations are going to kick in.

Roch--  I hear you.  I was not necessarily expecting a military defeat.  I was expecting the inauguration of a wider war, possibly with Russia. And even without that, I certainly did NOT expect the Balkan intervention to happen without one single U.S. casualty.  That, above all else, is the most amazing facet of that little experiment.  Not sure who to credit for that...Wes Clark? The Clinton Administration?  Our soldiers and airmen?  Dunno...but I am happy it played out the way it has.

[JSojourner]

Roch--  I hear you.  I was not necessarily expecting a military defeat.  I was expecting the inauguration of a wider war, possibly with Russia. And even without that, I certainly did NOT expect the Balkan intervention to happen without one single U.S. casualty.  That, above all else, is the most amazing facet of that little experiment.  Not sure who to credit for that...Wes Clark? The Clinton Administration?  Our soldiers and airmen?  Dunno...but I am happy it played out the way it has.

I understand your fear of U.S. casualties but how come you thought Russia was going to step into the conflict? First of all, Russia does not border the former Yugoslavia. Secondly, the USSR didn't necessarily have the best relations with Yugoslavia. Third, why would Russia care about what happens in the former Yugoslavia? It was a pretty poor region (especially back then), and it wasn't even under the USSR's sphere of influence during the Cold War. Russia wouldn't want to start a war with the U.S. over some small countries that have little importance to Russia, and Russia had it's own fair share of problems back then. Finally, I'm sure Yeltsin remembered what helping Serbia in 1914 and expanding WWI resulted in for Russia--two revolutions, massive genocide, and 75 years of economic stagnation. To be honest, I never heard anyone else saying that they thought bombing Bosnia would lead to a war with Russia. This is the first time I heard of this opinion. Of course, I was a small child back then, so maybe this sentiment and opinion was much more widespread in the early-mid 1990s than I think it was.

Were you alive back then?

There was a lot of concern that Russia would flex what military muscle she had in defense of her historic allies in the region. Russo-Serbian ties go back long before the Cold War.

We got lucky, in that Russia -- at the time -- didn't even have gasoline to powers its military vehicles.  If I didn't know that at the time, I sure learned it quickly. But the major concern would have been disabusing the United States of the notion that Europe was a place where it could work its will.  The notion of spheres of influence is one that is still cherished in some parts of the world. Russia has never liked us flaunting our military power in an area it considers more its backyard than our own.

My primary objection, however, was that England, France and other NATO countries were more than capable of doing the job themselves...without our help.  And I have long insisted that, when practicable, Europe should be permitted to tend to her own problems without the much-resented input of her cousins to the west. 

[JSojourner]

some of the European militaries are welfare schemes where the troops do make work, and are probably less "dangerous" than a street gang).

All of the "important" Euro countries have very competent, modern militaries that are man for man, on par with the US.  Yes, even the best rely too much on the US for force projection, but I wouldn't want to fight any majorish war without the help of the UK and Germany.

The UK has a very competent military. Germany?

No idea.  I know that in the Balkan conflict there was some sort of caveat disallowing the presence of German, Italian or Hungarian troops outside their own borders.  I seem to remember that as a reason for them not participating on the ground.  (Well, Hungary wasn't yet part of NATO anyway.)  Italy did some flight mission work but I think Germany stayed out entirely.  At least until combat was clearly over.

I could be wrong, but I think now there are even some non NATO forces on the ground there...Ireland, to be specific.