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Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2013, 04:20:39 am »

I'm looking forward to you clocking up another 8 posts or so and posting links and images!
It does seem a rather odd rule, does it not? I'll try to get round to it as soon as I can.

(BTW this is rather obviously a gratuitous post just to count towards my 20, while trying not to be completely off topic. I wonder if there's a special thread one can work out the 20 posts on?)
There's an entire board for that, baby. "Off Topic".

The rule's just to prevent bots posting ad links, I think.
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YL
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« Reply #76 on: January 04, 2013, 10:12:27 am »

Here are links to Stepney's maps.  I couldn't get the actual images to work for some reason.

Worcestershire 1918-24
Worcestershire 1929-45

Warwickshire 1918-35

Wiltshire 1918-24
Wiltshire 1929-45

Sheffield 1918-45

Manchester & Salford 1918-45

Staffordshire 1918-45
« Last Edit: January 04, 2013, 10:42:31 am by YL »Logged

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« Reply #77 on: January 04, 2013, 10:21:29 am »

Swindon went Labour in 1929? I know it has a railroad history, but that surprised me.

Also, lol at Manchester 23 vs Manchester 31!
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« Reply #78 on: January 04, 2013, 10:58:09 am »

Here are links to Stepney's maps.  I couldn't get the actual images to work for some reason.
Bless you: not only have you put up the pretty maps for everyone, you give me an excuse to get to 20 posts.

Postimage is a pain in the backside for changing the URLs of images one uploads; Al, I think, uploads them direct to here, I'll see if I'm able to do that.

So, yeah, those are the pretty maps so far. Nowhere near as good quality as Al's because I'm basically converting a series of 1930s Ordnance Survey maps straight into blank maps (not quite as easy) and, of course, I'm not adding descriptions. If anyone has any requests for more pretty maps, just say.
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« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2013, 10:59:54 am »

and, of course, I'm not adding descriptions. If anyone has any requests for more pretty maps, just say.
My request would be to change the policy regarding descriptions. Or else to badger Al to do it (and IIRC he did Somerset at one point, or was that for the postwar era?)
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« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2013, 11:02:32 am »

and, of course, I'm not adding descriptions. If anyone has any requests for more pretty maps, just say.
My request would be to change the policy regarding descriptions. Or else to badger Al to do it (and IIRC he did Somerset at one point, or was that for the postwar era?)
Al's inter-war Somerset is here.

Descriptions mean doing research and stuff. Whereas drawing maps, consulting FWS Craig, and colouring them in is fun, like an internet version of playing with finger paints.
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stepney
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« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2013, 11:22:45 am »

Swindon went Labour in 1929? I know it has a railroad history, but that surprised me.

Also, lol at Manchester 23 vs Manchester 31!
Well, 1923 was the best Liberal year since 1910 while it was the worst Conservative year in the inter-war period. 1931 was rather better for the Tories (weak sarcasm alert).

Part of that came from local Conservative Associations brooking no quarter with Samuelite Liberals even if it was meant to be National Government, unity, all pulling at the bit, etc. Where there were Liberals arguing for free trade the local Tory parties (having just been convulsed for two years by the protectionist crusade, although this was more a southern thing) generally fought them and generally won, including in this case against a sitting MP in Blackley and a new Liberal candidate in Withington.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2013, 11:47:29 am »

I think - by which I mean 'I read somewhere that' - the Tories actually won the most votes in Manchester in 1923 (finishing second everywhere syndrome). Though the best part of Manchester '23 was that the lone Tory seat was Hulme. Manchester Labour had real trouble breaking into the slums for various reasons. Platting was generally weaker than the other East Manchester seats, and that's despite a high profile candidate (J.R. Clynes).

Over in Salford, Ben Tillett was a notoriously lousy candidate; an agents nightmare.
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« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2013, 12:10:45 pm »

Labour's early strength in Manchester is in the mining parts and not in the textiles dominated slummy city centre. As a very broad summary.
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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2013, 12:55:53 pm »

Labour's early strength in Manchester is in the mining parts and not in the textiles dominated slummy city centre. As a very broad summary.

Loco works, engineering, chemicals and other heavy industrial delights as well as mining, but, yeah. Bradford - which had a large colliery until the 1960s - was one of Labour's first proper strongholds in the city. Similar patterns in some other large cities, of course; in Birmingham in 20s the Labour councillors were generally elected from wards dominated by heavy industry rather than the properly slummy areas, even if most of the latter were certainly capable of going Labour from a fairly early date (you get an echo of this in 1929 when Austen Chamberlain hung on in Birmingham West, despite said constituency being basically Hockley). Oh, and Selly Oak, an odd case that I think I've mentioned before.
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2013, 01:09:07 pm »

...but if I haven't, the ward included the Bournville works (and village), and one of the Labour councillor for the ward in the 20s went by the name of George Cadbury Junior.
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2013, 01:16:10 pm »

Labour's early strength in Manchester is in the mining parts and not in the textiles dominated slummy city centre. As a very broad summary.

Loco works, engineering, chemicals and other heavy industrial delights as well as mining, but, yeah. Bradford - which had a large colliery until the 1960s - was one of Labour's first proper strongholds in the city. Similar patterns in some other large cities, of course; in Birmingham in 20s the Labour councillors were generally elected from wards dominated by heavy industry rather than the properly slummy areas, even if most of the latter were certainly capable of going Labour from a fairly early date (you get an echo of this in 1929 when Austen Chamberlain hung on in Birmingham West, despite said constituency being basically Hockley). Oh, and Selly Oak, an odd case that I think I've mentioned before.

You say West Birmingham was basically Hockley, true enough: the seat was actually called the Hockley Division by the 1917 Commission and was renamed West Birmingham by the House (in memory of Old Joe and all that). It's worth remembering Austen got a swing against him in 1929 of 17%, and if I remember right in Jenkins' book on Chancellors he attributed it to "poor sods, how the other half must live, and how they suffer, I can hardly blame them voting Socialist" (I paraphrase); but next door (literally) in Ladywood Neville did a runner and Geoffrey Lloyd as the new Tory Unionist candidate suffered a 0.1% swing (which nonetheless was enough to turn a Tory Unionist majority of 77 into a Labour majority of 11).

Part of me wants to put the difference down to Geoffrey Lloyd's excellent campaigning (he was described somewhere as "an exquisite homosexual who inherited the Chamberlain machine in Birmingham"). Then again, part wants to put it down to Austen not really being part of the whole Chamberlain Brummagem machine, never having served on the Council, never having been Mayor (unlike practically the entirety of his male extended family), and naturally spending the last five years as Foreign Secretary travelling the world and not Brummagem.

Selly Oak (I say using a mixture of Davies-Morley and intuition) had the Bournville Estate (Cadbury Quaker influence?), the "Selly Oak-Stirchley metal-working district" and, presumably, a lot of workers at Longbridge - the workers' trains from New Street to Longbridge via Selly Oak started in 1915, and of course the Bristol Road was always there, though I don't know about the trams.

EDIT: Correction. The trams did run down the Bristol Road to Longbridge. Three routes, in fact.
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2013, 01:30:55 pm »

By the 1920s none of the Chamberlain's were really part of the machine; they'd abdicated in favour of a bunch of Edgbaston lawyers, though did remain its ceremonial head(s). This might be slightly unfair, but I think Austen basically turned up in the city at election time (whether he was needed or not) and drove around like some sort of seigneur, while other people did the actual work. Of course similar things were said about Roy Jenkins in the 60s!
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2013, 01:36:10 pm »

Huh, I remember at some point looking through historical constituency names in Birmingham and spotting that odd survival of a single cardinal point. So that has been cleared up for me now. Cheesy
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2013, 01:48:04 pm »

By the 1920s none of the Chamberlain's were really part of the machine; they'd abdicated in favour of a bunch of Edgbaston lawyers, though did remain its ceremonial head(s). This might be slightly unfair, but I think Austen basically turned up in the city at election time (whether he was needed or not) and drove around like some sort of seigneur, while other people did the actual work. Of course similar things were said about Roy Jenkins in the 60s!
Oh, I'm not disagreeing one iota re. Austen, but it might not be fair with regard to Neville, who of course followed in his old man's footsteps by being three times Mayor. Austen though cleared out of Highbury as soon as he could and took up residence at the unhappily-named Twitt's Ghyll (in deepest Sussex, not far from Uckfield). I don't know where Neville would have been listed on the ballot paper as living, but I think he would have had more pull and more interaction with Brum than Austen.

Huh, I remember at some point looking through historical constituency names in Birmingham and spotting that odd survival of a single cardinal point. So that has been cleared up for me now. Cheesy

The Hansard account of it is mangled on the Millbank website, but here it is. Austen had of course by now done his seat hop and was sitting for Da's old seat. There was no discussion; must have taken ninety seconds, if that. Might be easier if I render it in full:

Quote from:
Mr. EVELYN CECIL I beg to move, in column 4, to leave out the word "Hockley," and to insert instead thereof the words " West Birmingham."

I move this Amendment in the absence of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Chamberlain). West Birmingham is the old name of the constituency, and it carries with it many associations. The right hon. Member for East Fife (Mr. Asquith) the other day urged as a reason for restoring the name of his constituency the feeling of sentiment existing in the locality. The name of West Birmingham is associated with Mr. Joseph Chamberlain, and, as can be easily understood by hon. Members, it is desired to retain it in the future, in view of the respect and great affection in which he was held in his city.

An HON.MEMBER I beg to second the Amendment.

Sir G.CAVE I hope the House will give itself the pleasure of accepting this Amendment. We would not willingly lose the name of West Birmingham from the list of British constituencies, and I shall be exceedingly glad to accept the proposal.

Amendment agreed to.
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2013, 03:41:16 pm »

"Inner East Birmingham" would make a cracking constituency.name
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2013, 06:08:08 pm »

By the 1920s none of the Chamberlain's were really part of the machine; they'd abdicated in favour of a bunch of Edgbaston lawyers, though did remain its ceremonial head(s). This might be slightly unfair, but I think Austen basically turned up in the city at election time (whether he was needed or not) and drove around like some sort of seigneur, while other people did the actual work. Of course similar things were said about Roy Jenkins in the 60s!
Oh, I'm not disagreeing one iota re. Austen, but it might not be fair with regard to Neville, who of course followed in his old man's footsteps by being three times Mayor. Austen though cleared out of Highbury as soon as he could and took up residence at the unhappily-named Twitt's Ghyll (in deepest Sussex, not far from Uckfield). I don't know where Neville would have been listed on the ballot paper as living, but I think he would have had more pull and more interaction with Brum than Austen.

Helpfully I have a copy of the 1939 (and probably final) edition of the Constitutional Yearbook, which has profiles of all the MPs in 1939 complete with home addresses.  Unhelpfully this is the 1939 edition and therefore gives Neville's address as "10, Downing Street, S.W.1."
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2013, 09:01:57 pm »

Oh, I'm not disagreeing one iota re. Austen, but it might not be fair with regard to Neville, who of course followed in his old man's footsteps by being three times Mayor. Austen though cleared out of Highbury as soon as he could and took up residence at the unhappily-named Twitt's Ghyll (in deepest Sussex, not far from Uckfield). I don't know where Neville would have been listed on the ballot paper as living, but I think he would have had more pull and more interaction with Brum than Austen.

Oh sure; up until the 1920s he was very much an active part of the machine (unlike Austen), and presumably kept up his contacts with it a little better than his brother. Of course the machine predated the Chamberlains; you can probably date it back to the Birmingham Political Union, which would mean domination over the city's politics for well over a century, which isn't so far off Tammany Hall in terms of longevity.
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« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2013, 09:19:28 pm »

Sneak preview:

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« Reply #94 on: January 05, 2013, 07:31:50 am »

Helpfully I have a copy of the 1939 (and probably final) edition of the Constitutional Yearbook, which has profiles of all the MPs in 1939 complete with home addresses.  Unhelpfully this is the 1939 edition and therefore gives Neville's address as "10, Downing Street, S.W.1."
I'm somewhat deviating from the initial purpose of the thread, but I suppose I should disprove my own incorrect argument:

AustenNeville
Constitutional Year Book, 190611, Downing Street, S.W.-
Popular Guide to the House of Commons, 190640, Princeís-gardens, S.W.; Highbury, Moor Green, Birmingham-
Constitutional Year Book, 19199, Egerton Place, S.W.3.Westbourne, Edgbaston, Birmingham
Debrettís Guide to the House of Commons, 192211, Downing Street, S.W.1.35, Egerton Crescent, S.W.3; Westbourne, Edgbaston, Birmingham
Constitutional Year Book, 193258, Rutland Gate, S.W.737, Eaton Square, S.W.1
Constitutional Year Book, 1937House of Commons, S.W.111, Downing Street, S.W.1
Constitutional Year Book, 1939-10, Downing Street, S.W.1

I am looking at doing some descriptions of the Wiltshire seats, at which point Iíll get the thread back on track.
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« Reply #95 on: January 05, 2013, 07:42:29 am »

Here are brief descriptions of the Sheffield constituencies.  Names in brackets are the wards they included.   I've started with Central, then clockwise starting with Ecclesall (the darkest blue seat on most of Stepney's maps).

Sheffield Central (St Peter's, St Philip's, part of Broomhall): This consituency was tightly drawn around the city centre, extending west to cover Netherthorpe (in the modern Walkley ward) and south to include part of Highfield.  Most of the housing in this area would have been slums or little better, with not a lot surviving the various slum clearance programmes since 1918.  Presumably because of that, its electorate was distinctly low by 1945.  It seems surprising to me that it was so relatively Tory given the slums (though it was very close in both 1924 and 1935); I suppose this is related to the Manchester discussion.  All this area is now in the revived Sheffield Central.

Sheffield Ecclesall (Ecclesall, Sharrow): This was named after Ecclesall Bierlow, one of the six divisions of the old parish of Sheffield.  In 1918 much of the housing in this constituency would have been middle class villas in areas like Nether Edge, with some areas of by-law terraces and a few areas of genuine slums in the east of Sharrow ward.  Between the wars there was a lot of private middle class housing built in areas undeveloped before the war.  The outer areas are now in Sheffield Hallam, the inner areas in Sheffield Central.

Sheffield Hallam (Crookesmoor, Hallam, part of Broomhall): Nether Hallam and Upper Hallam were two more of the six divisions of the old parish.  This constituency was similar to Sheffield Ecclesall, though perhaps contained more slums (the areas close to the border with Central have seen a lot of slum clearance) but it also contained some very rich areas such as Ranmoor.  The outer areas are still in Hallam, while the inner areas have been removed over various boundary reviews and are now in Central.

Sheffield Hillsborough (Hillsborough, Neepsend, Walkley): This was north-west Sheffield, with Hillsborough having been added to the city at the beginning of the 20th century.  In 1918 the housing would have been a mix of by-law terraces and back-to-backs (mainly in the inner areas) with a few posher pockets.  Inter-war development would have included the western part of the large string of 1930s council estates which now dominate northern Sheffield, and some private development on the fringes of Walkley and Hillsborough.  Walkley is now in Sheffield Central, most of the rest in Brightside & Hillsborough, and a very small part in Hallam.

Sheffield Brightside (Brightside, Burngreave): Brightside Bierlow was another of the divisions of the old parish.  As with Hillsborough we're looking at terraces and back-to-backs in 1918, together with some larger Victorian villas on the top of the hill in Burngreave, with some pretty bad slums in other parts of Burngreave.  There was a lot of council housing built in this constituency between the wards, though the estates extend outside the 1918 city boundaries.  Almost all this area is in the successor seat, Brightside & Hillsborough.

Sheffield Attercliffe (Attercliffe, Darnall): Attercliffe-cum-Darnall was another division of the old parish.  The core of the steel-making area of the Lower Don Valley was split between this and Burngreave.  In 1918 this would have been similar to Brightside, but there wouldn't have been as much council development here, and after the Second World War most of the housing, especially in Attercliffe, was demolished in slum clearance programmes.  This constituency evolved into the present Sheffield South-East (unnecessarily renamed in 2010) but much of the current area of that constituency was outside the city boundary in 1918.

Sheffield Park (Heeley, Park): This was named after the old deer park of Sheffield Manor, most of which had large council estates built on it during this period.  In 1918 there was a slum area (known as Little Chicago) around Park Hill (now the site of the famous/infamous listed 1950s flats) and more mixed areas (by-law terraces and larger villas) further south around Norfolk Park, Heeley, Meersbrook and Woodseats.  The southern part of the constituency was annexed from Derbyshire around 1901.  The northern parts are now in Sheffield Central, the rest in Sheffield Heeley.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #96 on: January 05, 2013, 09:12:49 pm »

Sneak preview:


The Map is finished. I'll post a prettified version of it tomorrow (with colours and all that). Modifications for 1945 will follow soon after, I think. They won't be quite so accurate, but, meh.
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« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2013, 02:01:55 pm »



Bigger picture.
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« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2013, 06:33:46 pm »


That is a thing of beauty and a joy forever!
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« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2013, 06:08:55 am »

For the 1945 elections, they split all those constituencies that had grown to over half the average size in two, but didn't do anything about the very undersized constituencies. (As it happens, both these groups were somewhat Labour-favorable that year. To a degree we're talking about the cleared slums and the places they had been cleared to.)
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