Libertarian Bashing

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

they are condescending, arrogant, and pretend that their small ideology is always right and that everyone else is always wrong. Even if they agree with someone they may claim "you are not liberal/conservative enough"! If any Libertarian ever managed to get in a conversation with me on the street while coming off as a self-righteous prick they better pray not to piss me off.

     Most people in any ideological group are self-righteous pricks, libertarians included. It's really just a tendency bred into many of us by this societal norm that tells us that tolerance for opposing viewpoints & unwillingness to make absolute statements are signs of weakness.

very true. that tendency's definitely a growing problem i have with my party (GOP).

[Free Palestine]

Anybody else notice that HoffmanJohn pretty much described his own behavior when saying what he disliked about libertarians?

[Padfoot]

If there has indeed been an increase in libertarian bashing, I would guess that it is because libertarians (whether fairly or unfairly) have been closely tied to the Tea Party movement which most everyone believes is decidedly idiotic.

[Lunar]

"closely tied?"

Yeah, maybe like Rand Paul, but the stupidest elements of the Tea Party movement aren't libertarian at all, which is partially why they're stupid considering what they're protesting.

But again, I repeat myself.  Since when did libertarians, big or small L, become a bunch of babies whining about the minimal amount of bashing they face?  This forum is like heavily Libertarian relative to the public at large and many respected members rock the yellow avatar.  

I guess we should all take libertarian sensitivity courses.

[SPC]

Anybody else notice that HoffmanJohn pretty much described his own behavior when saying what he disliked about libertarians?

Yeah, especially when you see his other thread.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The people who actually believe that the free market solves every problem and that we need no government should just move to Bir Tawil.

[segwaystyle2012]

HoffmanJohn = Lief

[SPC]

The people who actually believe that the free market solves every problem and that we need no government should just move to Bir Tawil.

If you like the government, feel free to keep it, but why do you propose forcing me to recognize it?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The people who actually believe that the free market solves every problem and that we need no government should just move to Bir Tawil.

If you like the government, feel free to keep it, but why do you propose forcing me to recognize it?

There is no government to recognize in Bir Tawil.

[Lief 🗽]

Beyond their personal issues, the ironic group think that defines the group, and the ignorance and hostility towards factual debate many of them exhibit on this forum, libertarianism Is A Bad Thing because it is a dangerous ideology that would result in a decline in the quality of life for most people. They're completely detached from reality, and believe that the poor would lift themselves out of poverty, charity would care for the sick, militias and mercenaries would protect us, banks would regulate themselves and ensure that inflation and unemployment never happen, and workers and employers would join hands and sing cumbaya, IF ONLY the nasty old government would shrivel and die.

Libertarians definitely have some good ideas. I don't think that the government should generally intrude in people's lives. But what libertarians don't seem to realize is that the government is not always a force for evil, it is not always hellbent on enslaving you, and it is not always doing the bidding of some Big Brother. In fact, the government is what provides us with many of the freedoms we hold dear, from the basic rights to property to things like healthcare and education, so that we are free to pursue careers and achieve our definition of happiness.

[The Mikado]

Honestly, aside from everything else, the constant turf-wars within the libertarian camp over who is a real libertarian here can make some threads borderline unreadable.  Einzige's obsession with Mint is especially problematic, as it gets dragged into every thread Mint posts in.

There are plenty of libbies here that I don't have a problem with: Mech, PiT, Mint, and dead0man fall into that category.  They're civil and respectful, and even though I have some pretty extreme policy differences with PiT, he's one of the better people here.  On the other hand...let's just say I vastly prefer the Republican posters on this site to most of the other Libertarian wing.

[RI]

Libertarians definitely have some good ideas. I don't think that the government should generally intrude in people's lives. But what libertarians don't seem to realize is that the government is not always a force for evil, it is not always hellbent on enslaving you, and it is not always doing the bidding of some Big Brother. In fact, the government is what provides us with many of the freedoms we hold dear, from the basic rights to property to things like healthcare and education, so that we are free to pursue careers and achieve our definition of happiness.

Amen.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Beyond their personal issues, the ironic group think that defines the group, and the ignorance and hostility towards factual debate many of them exhibit on this forum, libertarianism Is A Bad Thing because it is a dangerous ideology that would result in a decline in the quality of life for most people. They're completely detached from reality, and believe that the poor would lift themselves out of poverty, charity would care for the sick, militias and mercenaries would protect us, banks would regulate themselves and ensure that inflation and unemployment never happen, and workers and employers would join hands and sing cumbaya, IF ONLY the nasty old government would shrivel and die.

Libertarians definitely have some good ideas. I don't think that the government should generally intrude in people's lives. But what libertarians don't seem to realize is that the government is not always a force for evil, it is not always hellbent on enslaving you, and it is not always doing the bidding of some Big Brother. In fact, the government is what provides us with many of the freedoms we hold dear, from the basic rights to property to things like healthcare and education, so that we are free to pursue careers and achieve our definition of happiness.

This exactly.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Beyond their personal issues, the ironic group think that defines the group, and the ignorance and hostility towards factual debate many of them exhibit on this forum, libertarianism Is A Bad Thing because it is a dangerous ideology that would result in a decline in the quality of life for most people. They're completely detached from reality, and believe that the poor would lift themselves out of poverty, charity would care for the sick, militias and mercenaries would protect us, banks would regulate themselves and ensure that inflation and unemployment never happen, and workers and employers would join hands and sing cumbaya, IF ONLY the nasty old government would shrivel and die.

Libertarians definitely have some good ideas. I don't think that the government should generally intrude in people's lives. But what libertarians don't seem to realize is that the government is not always a force for evil, it is not always hellbent on enslaving you, and it is not always doing the bidding of some Big Brother. In fact, the government is what provides us with many of the freedoms we hold dear, from the basic rights to property to things like healthcare and education, so that we are free to pursue careers and achieve our definition of happiness.

     In other words, you tend to have issues with the more extreme elements of the libertarian movement.

     Of course you folks get to bash libertarians as much as you want, but I would prefer that you acknowledge that there are many libertarians who are neither paleoconservatives in disguise nor anarcho-capitalists.

[Ban my account ffs!]

Because they're scared of how true most of our beliefs are.

Yes... I'm so glad the Red Cross and the United Way pay to keep disabled Americans like my mother alive.  If only we could rid ourselves of government, she could be even more alive!

[k-onmmunist]

Capitalism works.

lol no

200 years of history has proven me right.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

Very odd history Winston....

Anyway my problem with Libertarianism is that it isn't Libertarian and this fact must be repeated over and over and over again.

[Free Trade is managed by the invisible hand.]

they are just plain arrogant, and this is a fact.

Look at how Ron Paul pretended to be "champion of the constitution" without even earning that title. Did he win a competition or something? nope he just simply assumed that his view of the constitution was superior to someone else's view, and anyone who thought otherwise was simply deemed anti-constitution.


In the end that spend too much of their time being critical, and not enough of their time presenting new and interesting ideas.

[Mint]

they are just plain arrogant, and this is a fact.

Look at how Ron Paul pretended to be "champion of the constitution" without even earning that title. Did he win a competition or something? nope he just simply assumed that his view of the constitution was superior to someone else's view, and anyone who thought otherwise was simply deemed anti-constitution.

I don't see how this is any more unfair than any of the claims 'progressives' like to make about looking out for the interests of the working class or unfortunate or christian conservatives do with 'morality' or 'family values.' Spin and framing like that is everywhere in politics. At least with Paul he can point to issues like the Patriot Act or Drugs where he consistently took the civil libertarian stance, even if we might disagree with his particular kind of strict constructionism.

[Guderian]

Self-identified libertarians are a weird and diverse bunch of people who often have very little in common. I know of at least 4 different types of libertarians:

Type A is really a mainstream conservative, but he's gay, or likes to smoke pot, or enjoys some other family-unfriendy activity and he's affraid someone will call him a hypocrite if he identifies publicly as a conservative. They are probably at least a 51% majority of the "movement".

Type B is an anti-Semite, conspiracy nutjob, doom-is-coming, beware of the black helicopter guy who is stashing food, water and guns on his ranch in Idaho, you know, just in case.  These are really the most deplorable people who associate with libertarianism.

Type C is a disappointed paleoconservative, yearning for romantic days of 100% isolationist past. Sure, I don't agree with their foreign policy views, but this group is usually tolerable.

Type D is a libertarian leftist, they are like left-wing version of type A, liberals who like guns or are just a bit too mysanthropic to buy mainstream liberal Kumbaya mantra.  

The second most annoying thing about libertarians, is their constant bickering between themselves about what is "true libertarianism" (of course, conservatives and liberals bicker too about ideological purity, but not so passionately as libertarians, which is natural because like I said, libertarians often come from at least 4 different mindsets). However, the most annoying thing about libertarians is their belief that there's some silent libertarian majority that will soon rise and that the majority of people are really unconscious libertarians.

[Mechaman]

Self-identified libertarians are a weird and diverse bunch of people who often have very little in common. I know of at least 4 different types of libertarians:

Type A is really a mainstream conservative, but he's gay, or likes to smoke pot, or enjoys some other family-unfriendy activity and he's affraid someone will call him a hypocrite if he identifies publicly as a conservative. They are probably at least a 51% majority of the "movement".

Type B is an anti-Semite, conspiracy nutjob, doom-is-coming, beware of the black helicopter guy who is stashing food, water and guns on his ranch in Idaho, you know, just in case.  These are really the most deplorable people who associate with libertarianism.

Type C is a disappointed paleoconservative, yearning for romantic days of 100% isolationist past. Sure, I don't agree with their foreign policy views, but this group is usually tolerable.

Type D is a libertarian leftist, they are like left-wing version of type A, liberals who like guns or are just a bit too mysanthropic to buy mainstream liberal Kumbaya mantra.  

The second most annoying thing about libertarians, is their constant bickering between themselves about what is "true libertarianism" (of course, conservatives and liberals bicker too about ideological purity, but not so passionately as libertarians, which is natural because like I said, libertarians often come from at least 4 different mindsets). However, the most annoying thing about libertarians is their belief that there's some silent libertarian majority that will soon rise and that the majority of people are really unconscious libertarians.

I actually agree with most of this post.
I will admit to being guilty of playing the "No True Scotsman" card in the past and I believe that is what is probably holding back the movement.  Once we quit the petty finger wagging and labeling maybe we can get somewhere.
However I disagree with the notion that libertarianism is an impossible idealogy/philosophy or whatever the hell you want to call it in America.  I believe it is possible to achieve some sort of "libertarian" government.  Sure, I will accept that my vision of libertarianism, the batsh*t insane version of it, is probably impossible.  I mean really: Does anyone think that the United States will legalize all drugs, legalize all forms of sexual relationships, abolish the age of consent, get rid of every gun control law ever and disband the military, get rid of all income taxation, etc etc.?
However, I believe that a mainstream libertarian government may be possible: One that embraces a foreign policy of non-interventionism, one that is socially permissive as it regards soft drugs, sexual orientation, and most other issues but maybe a bit divided over abortion, in favor of a balanced budget amendment, for lower govenrment spending as well as lower overall taxation, support of free trade (but skeptical of free trade "agreements" that add loads of bureaucracy), for partial privatization of social security, you get the idea.  One that has libertarian ideas but is a bit more pragmatic in their approach.
It's not impossible, it may seem that way now but a few years down the road you might be surprised at how much the political environment might change.  After all, how many Democrats in 1932 thought that by 1948 their party would have a Civil Rights platform?

[Free Palestine]

they are just plain arrogant, and this is a fact.

Look at how Ron Paul pretended to be "champion of the constitution" without even earning that title. Did he win a competition or something? nope he just simply assumed that his view of the constitution was superior to someone else's view, and anyone who thought otherwise was simply deemed anti-constitution.


In the end that spend too much of their time being critical, and not enough of their time presenting new and interesting ideas.

Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black, again.

[Lief 🗽]

Capitalism works.

lol no

200 years of history has proven me right.

Er, not really. Capitalism has failed plenty of times and it continues to fail to this day. Government intervention is what prevented its complete collapse. And just because it hasn't been swept under the rug yet doesn't mean that it won't one day. I'm sure there were plenty like you in the 17th century saying that mercantilism works and will never fail.

[Vepres]

Yeah, many libertarians are pretty arrogant, but the same could be said about most people into politics

[Badger]

Self-identified libertarians are a weird and diverse bunch of people who often have very little in common. I know of at least 4 different types of libertarians:

Type A is really a mainstream conservative, but he's gay, or likes to smoke pot, or enjoys some other family-unfriendy activity and he's affraid someone will call him a hypocrite if he identifies publicly as a conservative. They are probably at least a 51% majority of the "movement".

Type B is an anti-Semite, conspiracy nutjob, doom-is-coming, beware of the black helicopter guy who is stashing food, water and guns on his ranch in Idaho, you know, just in case.  These are really the most deplorable people who associate with libertarianism.

Type C is a disappointed paleoconservative, yearning for romantic days of 100% isolationist past. Sure, I don't agree with their foreign policy views, but this group is usually tolerable.

Type D is a libertarian leftist, they are like left-wing version of type A, liberals who like guns or are just a bit too mysanthropic to buy mainstream liberal Kumbaya mantra.  

The second most annoying thing about libertarians, is their constant bickering between themselves about what is "true libertarianism" (of course, conservatives and liberals bicker too about ideological purity, but not so passionately as libertarians, which is natural because like I said, libertarians often come from at least 4 different mindsets). However, the most annoying thing about libertarians is their belief that there's some silent libertarian majority that will soon rise and that the majority of people are really unconscious libertarians.

This is a really good analysis.

I'll just add that, while I'll take your word that the type A and D libertarians are the majority of the movement, thanks in part to the rise of the tea partiers the selective small government hypocrites from type C and (especially) the wholly obnoxious type B's are by far the loudest and most public face of the movement--and hence most annoying--both in RL and on the forum.

Beyond that, though, I don't really have a problem with libertarianism (or libertarians).