Day of Prayer Ruled Unconstitutional (user search)
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  Day of Prayer Ruled Unconstitutional (search mode)
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Author Topic: Day of Prayer Ruled Unconstitutional  (Read 10265 times)
Verily
Cuivienen
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E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« on: April 15, 2010, 10:47:33 PM »

Why would Thanksgiving be next?  Its not a religious holiday. 

It's inherently religious, though not promoting any particular religion.

This I find curious. How is Thanksgiving religious? One can be thankful for good fortune without having to believe that some divine power provided said fortune. Even a determinist like me sees value in reflecting on what "luck" I've had.
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Verily
Cuivienen
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Posts: 16,663


Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2010, 12:09:03 AM »

cinyc, that's an appeal to tradition. It's a logical fallacy.

Not when interpreting the constitution.   Who do you suppose we're supposed to give thanks to during Thanksgiving?  How many national prayer days did George Washington pronounce?  How can something that the founders also proclaimed be unconstitutional?

The Alien and Sedition Acts were clearly unconstitutional, for instance.

The constitutionality of the Alien and Sedition Acts was questioned by the Anti-Federalists immediately after they were passed.  Two state legislatures denounced them.  And the most odious provisions of the Alien and Sedition Acts were never passed again.  No Supreme Court case was brought against the law, but Marbury v. Madison hadn't been decided yet.

The sheer number of Presidents who have proclaimed days of prayer or fasting - including Washington, Adams, Madison and Lincoln - suggests it is constitutional if not mandatory.

No matter how common something is, it can still be unconstitutional. "Commonness" is not a constitutionally relevant criterion. Segregation was quite common and actively supported by many Presidents, but it was ultimately ruled unconstitutional.
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Verily
Cuivienen
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Posts: 16,663


Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2010, 12:57:28 PM »

What the heck is the point of a 'day of prayer' anyway?

To... promote prayer. Which is an inherently Abrahamic (if not necessarily Christian) notion. Although of course in the United States it is tantamount to a day of Christian prayer.
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Verily
Cuivienen
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Posts: 16,663


Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2010, 02:29:38 PM »


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Thanksgiving and Christmas are secularized enough that it really isn't necessary to do that.

Also, part of the point of government holidays is to avoid being open on days when your employees will not want to work/take sick days if they're not given the day off. Consider what happens in NYC offices on Rosh Hashanah, and imagine that taking place all across the country. Not worth being open.
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Verily
Cuivienen
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Posts: 16,663


Political Matrix
E: 1.81, S: -6.78

« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 06:42:55 PM »

Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.
The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.
No government should have a national day of prayer because it endorses religion in general. Having a secularized government that doesn't endorse any religion/lack of religion is the ideal. Even if the government's practice of setting days of worship is very unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it is a slap in the face to the non-religious for the government to promote prayer.

A secularized government endorses secular humanism and atheism - a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD - by default.  Inaction IS action.  

It is a slap in the face to religious peoples for the government not to hold optional days of prayer out of respect for those who are religious in this country.  ESPECIALLY when the US government has done so since before the founding of this country.

Absolute nonsense. Does the government endorse opposition to anything else by failing to have a day celebrating it? (Say, perhaps, Nagorno-Karabakhian independence) No, of course not. Why does religion get special treatment?
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