Day of Prayer Ruled Unconstitutional

[cinyc]

Nonsense.  What's next?  Thanksgiving?

By the President of the United States of America.

A Proclamation.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.

-Abraham Lincoln

[cinyc]

cinyc, that's an appeal to tradition. It's a logical fallacy.

Not when interpreting the constitution.   Who do you suppose we're supposed to give thanks to during Thanksgiving?  How many national prayer days did George Washington pronounce?  How can something that the founders also proclaimed be unconstitutional?

[cinyc]

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789.

-George Washington

http://wilstar.com/holidays/wash_thanks.html

[cinyc]

Obama: "We are NO LONGER a Christian Nation"

Hmm, now when did Obama say this? I'd obviously applaud him if he did but you are just fabricating things as usual aren't you?

True.  Obama did say that, sort of.  Stumbling over his words and initially forgetting to say just.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_say_we_are_no_longer.html

[cinyc]

Obama: "We are NO LONGER a Christian Nation"

Hmm, now when did Obama say this? I'd obviously applaud him if he did but you are just fabricating things as usual aren't you?

True.  Obama did say that, sort of.  Stumbling over his words and initially forgetting to say just.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/did_obama_say_we_are_no_longer.html

Umm, okay.

There is a tape out there of Obama saying exactly what jfcmst claims he did - if edited out of  context.  Taking remarks out of context - kind of like what the left did to President Bush to make him look like a moron on TV.

[cinyc]

cinyc, that's an appeal to tradition. It's a logical fallacy.

Not when interpreting the constitution.   Who do you suppose we're supposed to give thanks to during Thanksgiving?  How many national prayer days did George Washington pronounce?  How can something that the founders also proclaimed be unconstitutional?

The Alien and Sedition Acts were clearly unconstitutional, for instance.

The constitutionality of the Alien and Sedition Acts was questioned by the Anti-Federalists immediately after they were passed.  Two state legislatures denounced them.  And the most odious provisions of the Alien and Sedition Acts were never passed again.  No Supreme Court case was brought against the law, but Marbury v. Madison hadn't been decided yet.

The sheer number of Presidents who have proclaimed days of prayer or fasting - including Washington, Adams, Madison and Lincoln - suggests it is constitutional if not mandatory.

[cinyc]

cinyc, that's an appeal to tradition. It's a logical fallacy.

Not when interpreting the constitution.   Who do you suppose we're supposed to give thanks to during Thanksgiving?  How many national prayer days did George Washington pronounce?  How can something that the founders also proclaimed be unconstitutional?

The Alien and Sedition Acts were clearly unconstitutional, for instance.

The constitutionality of the Alien and Sedition Acts was questioned by the Anti-Federalists immediately after they were passed.  Two state legislatures denounced them.  And the most odious provisions of the Alien and Sedition Acts were never passed again.  No Supreme Court case was brought against the law, but Marbury v. Madison hadn't been decided yet.

The sheer number of Presidents who have proclaimed days of prayer or fasting - including Washington, Adams, Madison and Lincoln - suggests it is constitutional if not mandatory.

No matter how common something is, it can still be unconstitutional. "Commonness" is not a constitutionally relevant criterion. Segregation was quite common and actively supported by many Presidents, but it was ultimately ruled unconstitutional.

Commonness is absolutely a relevant criterion when interpreting the Constitution, especially when what is common was so back around the time of the founding.  Original intent matters to the Supreme Court - and what the Founders did is highly relevant.

I suppose this doesn't matter to liberals who believe that the Constitution should be read to mean whatever they think it means in light of current circumstances.  But the current Supreme Court doesn't think that way.

[cinyc]

Good, it was an explicit pronouncement of Christian preference.  It's understandable that so many Christians are apprehensive about their steel grip being eased off this country.  But they have to remember that it is not just their country and an appeal to majority is not a legitimate claim to dominance.  That's the same logical fallacy used against black people getting rights as well.  It's a real test of character to be able to stand for what's right even when you don't have to.  And we all know Christians could easily force us down an even more insane path, but we thankfully have well-rounded Christians like Obama in high posts.

There is nothing inherently Christian about prayer or the National Day of Prayer.  And your distrust of Christians is extremely disturbing.

As for Obama:

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[cinyc]

Good, it was an explicit pronouncement of Christian preference.  It's understandable that so many Christians are apprehensive about their steel grip being eased off this country.  But they have to remember that it is not just their country and an appeal to majority is not a legitimate claim to dominance.  That's the same logical fallacy used against black people getting rights as well.  It's a real test of character to be able to stand for what's right even when you don't have to.  And we all know Christians could easily force us down an even more insane path, but we thankfully have well-rounded Christians like Obama in high posts.

There is nothing inherently Christian about prayer or the National Day of Prayer.  And your distrust of Christians is extremely disturbing.

Because history is sure on the side of Christians being peaceful and restrained in the hands of extreme power.  What is it about my distrust so "extremely disturbing"?  Those are some strong words.

And let's not pretend it isn't all about Christians, that much is obvious.  Regardless, there is something inherently religious about prayer, something the United States is not.  Every American should be able to call the government theirs, millions cannot with things like this in place.

Because it is extremely irrational in the US context.  Christians have never been anything but peaceful and restrained in the US, and never really had extreme power.  And because it's a sign of disrespect for people with legitimately held religious beliefs, one step up from anti-Semitism.  

A day of prayer ISN'T all about Christians.  It's about prayer - OPTIONAL prayer.  No one is being forced to pray to anyone. I suppose by your logic, millions of Christians and other religious Americans and even the not-so-religious who still pray at times ought not to be able to call the government theirs since it cannot even call for an optional day of prayer.

Let's ban Thanksgiving, too, while we're at it.  And forget about Christmas.  That's just another day - so let's force government employees to work it.

[cinyc]

Christians have never been anything but peaceful and restrained in the US, and never really had extreme power.

Are you kidding? Tons of evil has been done by Christians with their religion as justification in the history of this nation, some of it even against other Christians!

Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

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Let's suppose we accept the notion that the day of prayer wasn't established for Christians. So what? I'm an atheist - why should even a cent of my tax dollars be used to encourage an act that is entirely religious?

If people want to pray, they can. Nobody is stopping them. Nobody is stopping churches from holding their own prayer day either. Besides, isn't prayer supposed to be something you do year round?[/quote]

It costs NOTHING more to proclaim a day a national day of prayer than it does to proclaim it Martin Luther King Day, Lincoln's Birthday or Hispanic or Womens' History Month.  In fact, those cost more to declare those holidays because government offices are closed.  If I don't like Martin Luther King or Lincoln, or if I'm not Hispanic or a woman why should one cent of my tax dollars be used to encourage days honoring those people or groups?

Atheism IS a religion.  By making the mere mention of other religions in a proclamation taboo, the government is establishing atheism as the state religion.

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Thanksgiving and Christmas are secularized enough that it really isn't necessary to do that.
[/quote]

Who are we giving thanks to?  What's Christmas about?  Those holidays aren't secular at all - especially CHRISTmas.

[cinyc]

Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.

The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.

[cinyc]

Name one thing.  Your attitude towards Christians and religious people is extremely intolerant.

Why is "tolerance" made into a virtue with you? Both Dibble and I are libertarians, not liberals; we don't feel the need to refrain from stepping on the toes of your precious special interests. I've noticed that the whining of Christian Dominionists has taken on an increasingly cosmopolitan tone in recent years - it stinks of special pleading. There's no reason to be tolerant towards the dominant group in American society.

We ought to treat religions like competitors in a market; what's good for the goose is good for the gander. What we do not need is the State supporting one or the other and thereby monopolizing the marketplace of ideas.

The state isn't supporting any religion by a national day of prayer any more than it is with Thanksgiving or CHRISTmas. 

A true Libertarian would RESPECT the rights of religious people, not mock them or treat them like second-class citizens.  Liberty includes the liberty to worship the God you want - or not.  Many self-proclaimed libertarians simply don't understand that.

No government should have a national day of prayer because it endorses religion in general. Having a secularized government that doesn't endorse any religion/lack of religion is the ideal. Even if the government's practice of setting days of worship is very unimportant, it doesn't change the fact that it is a slap in the face to the non-religious for the government to promote prayer.

A secularized government endorses secular humanism and atheism - a LACK OF BELIEF IN GOD - by default.  Inaction IS action.  

It is a slap in the face to religious peoples for the government not to hold optional days of prayer out of respect for those who are religious in this country.  ESPECIALLY when the US government has done so since before the founding of this country.

[cinyc]

Absolute nonsense. Does the government endorse opposition to anything else by failing to have a day celebrating it? (Say, perhaps, Nagorno-Karabakhian independence) No, of course not. Why does religion get special treatment?

Has the government proclaimed Nagorno-Karabajkhian independence or dependence day every year?  No.

[cinyc]

So, you do not believe that church and state can be separated? That's interesting...

The phrase "separation of church and state" appear nowhere in the constitution.

[cinyc]

Inaction IS action.  

Exactly my point about you and your ilk: you absolutely love Big Government if it's supporting your values, propping them up, and immunizing them from fair criticism. You're no better than the liberals you lambaste, and are, in fact, quite worse, as you are a majoritarian.

Calling for a national day of prayer doesn't prop up anyone's values or immunize them from criticism.  It is nothing more than a sign of respect for the history and traditions of this country, going back to the days of the founding.   Thanksgiving started as a national day of prayer to give thanks to God (yes GOD) for this country - as proclamations of evil Presidents from Washington to Lincoln to Bush to Obama clearly show.  That's the next thing intolerant atheists like you will try to ban because it doesn't fit your agenda to completely remove religion from the public sphere - something the founders never advocated for or contemplated and isn't even possible, because removing religion from the public sphere is an endorsement of atheism and secular humanism, which are religions in their own rights.  As I said before, the phrase "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution.

I do not love big government.  Proclaiming a national day of prayer costs practically nothing.  Proclaiming Martin Luther King Day or Independence Day or Black History Month costs a hell of a lot more - yet is perfectly acceptable.  

[cinyc]

From the Declaration of Independence:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

From George Washington's Thanksgiving Declaration:

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to "recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

From John Adams' National Day of Fasting and Prayer Proclamation:

AS the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and blessing of Almighty God; and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety, without which social happiness cannot exist, nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed; and as this duty, at all times incumbent, is so especially in seasons of difficulty and of danger, when existing or threatening calamities, the just judgments of God against prevalent iniquity are a loud call to repentance and reformation; and as the United States of America are at present placed in a hazardous and afflictive situation, by the unfriendly disposition, conduct and demands of a foreign power, evinced by repeated refusals to receive our messengers of reconciliation and peace, by depredations on our commerce, and the infliction of injuries on very many of our fellow citizens, while engaged in their lawful business on the seas: —Under these considerations it has appeared to me that the duty of imploring the mercy and benediction of Heaven on our country, demands at this time a special attention from its inhabitants.

I HAVE therefore thought it fit to recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th day of May next be observed throughout the United States, as a day of Solemn Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer; That the citizens of these states, abstaining on that day from their customary worldly occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies, agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming: That all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before GOD the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation; beseeching him, at the same time, of his infinite Grace, through the Redeemer of the world, freely to remit all our offences, and to incline us, by his holy spirit, to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction; That it be made the subject of particular and earnest supplication, that our country may be protected from all the dangers which threaten it; that our civil and religious privileges may be preserved inviolate, and perpetuated to the latest generations; that our public councils and magistrates may be especially enlightened and directed at this critical period; that the American people may be united in those bonds of amity and mutual confidence, and inspired with that vigor and fortitude by which they have in times past been so highly distinguished, and by which they have obtained such invaluable advantages:

From Abraham Lincoln's Thanksgiving Proclamation:

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed.

[cinyc]

I have produced thirty quotes from the Framers detailing their opinions on Christianity. You produced two, and another from a man no libertarian believes to deserve to be grouped with the others, all dealing with vague references to a non-specific God. I think I trump you here.

Once again, a national day of prayer has NOTHING TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY in particular.  It is non-denominational and not  Christians pray.  Jews pray.  Muslims pray.  Buddhists pray.  Hindus pray.  Animists pray.  Ancestor worshipers pray.  Even polytheists and some agnostics and atheists pray.

Some of the Founders were deists.  So what?  That has nothing to do with a national day of prayer.

[cinyc]

Name one thing.

Easy enough - slavery.

Biblical scripture was used to justify slavery. For instance in the late 1700s Reverend William Graham, an instructor at Liberty Hall Academy, would annually lecture the graduating senior class about the value of slavery and used the Bible as his primary defense for it. For him and many others like him Christianity wasn't meant to change social institutions but rather to convert people and bring them to salvation. Slavery was just another position in which you might become saved. They certainly had quite a bit of scripture to justify this - I'll be glad to tell you exactly which passages in your Bible, if you'd like.

Oh, but it doesn't stop in just using it to justify slavery to their fellow white men. They also used it as a means of keeping the slaves in line. By indoctrinating them into Christianity they could use those passages to encourage slaves to be obedient to their earthly masters in exchange for their promised heavenly reward, as well as implying that disobeying their masters would be perceived by God as disobeying him. Add in the enforced illiteracy and you have it so the slaves can't even read the Bible for themselves, so they could use the dogma without having the slaves able to read from the source of the authority themselves.

Or do you think that the systematic oppression of millions of people is "peaceful and restrained"?

Oh yes, the old slavery canard.  A system that was perpetrated for centuries, including a millennium or more before Christianity even began is Christianity's fault, even when it is Christians who stopped the practice in the first place.  The Muslim Arab traders who enslaved Africans aren't culpable, nor are the African tribesman who sold people from opposing tribes into bondage.  Slavery was all the fault of evil White Christian male oppressors.

Spare me the politically correct nonsense.

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My attitude is extremely tolerant. For one thing I don't go around killing them because they don't believe the same things I do. The same can't be said for how Christians have treated non-believers, which often included differing sects of Christianity, for much of their history. Catholics and Protestants were at eachother's throats for quite a while, and in many ways still are.[/quote]

Your attitude is far from tolerant.  You want to take religion out of the public square and declare it something not worthy of political debate.  You want to pretend it doesn't exist.  It does.

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Because those aren't religious. They are encouraging people to learn about actual historical events and such. However you may have a point on racial and gender preferences on the latter two, which could make it unconstitutional on other grounds.

I wouldn't support National Godlessness Day being government endorsed, even if I might like such a day to exist. Religion and government need to remain separated as possible.[/quote]

You can't have an understanding of history without understanding religion.   National days of prayer are ingrained in this nation's history from the start.  To deny such is to deny the history of this country.

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Atheism is not a religion. What dogma do atheists have that make us a religious order? Let me give you a hint - the answer is none. Atheism is simply the lack of a certain kind of belief. The government also isn't actively encouraging atheism, nor would it constitutionally be allowed to - a National Day of Encouraging Godless Living would be just as unconstitutional as National Prayer Day.[/quote]

Atheists have a very simple dogma - God doesn't exist.  It is as incapable of proof as proving a Christian God or Muslim Allah exists.  Yet atheists blindly adhere to such a view in the absence of proof.  Agnosticism is an absence of belief about the existence of God.  Atheism is the BELIEF that there is no God.  It IS a religion.  An atheist's church is the church of secular humanism, in which God shouldn't matter in public or political affairs.  Part of many atheists' creed is to belittle those who believe in God.

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Who are we giving thanks to?  What's Christmas about?  Those holidays aren't secular at all - especially CHRISTmas.[/quote]

1. I don't know about you, but I give thanks to my friends and family. They are there for me, providing love and support for me whenever I need it. Thanksgiving is just a good time for me to go visit them, share our thanks for one another, and eat some good food. God doesn't really enter the equation as far as I'm concerned. For the believing members of my family it might, but that's not really a concern.
2. Christmas isn't even originally a Christian holiday. It's origins come from pagan holidays. Read up on your history. Besides, what do Santa Clause, flying reindeer, elves, snowmen, decorated trees, and toys have to do with Jesus? Even the Japanese celebrate Christmas en masse, and only half a percent or so of the population there is Christian. Secularized enough for you?

The nature of holidays change with time. Get over it.
[/quote]

1.  Thanksgiving has been proclaimed by American Presidents from the beginning of this Republic as a day of prayer.  The thanks is to be given to God.
2. CHRISTmas is a Christian holiday commemorating the birth of Jesus Christ.  Santa Claus is a Christian SAINT - jolly old St. Nick did exist, and had a reputation of giving gifts.  That Japanese celebrate CHRISTmas doesn't make it any less of a day to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ.