My journey to athiesm.
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Author Topic: My journey to athiesm.  (Read 5472 times)
afleitch
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« on: June 15, 2010, 06:59:34 AM »

This may swing close to the religion/philosophy board but I want to get this off my chest.

First off I'm not going to bore you all with a big story. There was no 'revelation' and I would mistrust it if there was. The understanding was gradual and indeed was underway long before I came to the conclusion that I have done. I want to take this moment to pre-empt something. Just because I reject the divinity of a man called Jesus, does not mean that I cede to certain sorts of Christians that their interpretation of his message is correct. He, like any other historical figure should be defended when he is misused by those who are inspired by them. In fact the man requires greater defence given that he is just a man.

I don't believe that anyone who is a athiest is 100% certain that there is no external force, deity, god, life force, Gaia whatever you want to call it. It is just that the weight of the evidence is against it and continues to be stacked against it. For those who are theists the burden of proof must be on them. Particularly for Christians. It is no good for them even saying 'well I'm not 100% sure either but I think there is a god.' or 'I think that Jesus was devine' That's not good enough for a professing Christian; you have to believe 100% you cannot go part way. You have to base that belief on faith alone, or have faith 'plug' any gaps that you may summise that's the whole point of Christian faith.

Do I fear death? Yes. I cannot think of any human alive who does not harbour even a fleeting concern for the method in which they will die. It might be peaceful, it might be painful. It is a quirk of human evolution and consciousness that we have the capacity to undertand death and that it will happen to us. It is out of our consciousness and our selfishness (we are primates) that we get a bit frustrated that we have to die; that theres nothing after the event (many of us feel the same way about aging). That what we do in life has no effect on that outcome. It's a damn shame.

That's why the concepts of 'spirits' exist in just about every culture. If they did (and again the onus is on those who believe that such things do exist to demonstrate this), I suspect after having given it much thought that I would prefer it's 'destination' not to be one where it is joined to it's creator and looses all sense of independence but one whether it chooses it's own demise, floats around the ether or attaches itself to another creature. In either of the last three scenarios it retains it's independence. In either of those three scenario it more adequately reflects it's 'origin.' For the religious who say that it's not for me to determine what happens to it you now have to prove two things; not only that it exists, but that it's destination is at the hands of another.

But that is a digression. I mentioned how selfish we are and why we get annoyed at our own demise. But we are also wonderfully unselfish too. We do great things, we may even lay down our lives. To then suggest that this capacity for the good (and the bad) is 'given' to us by a deity demeans in my mind the greatness of that action.

I'll tell you what the 'straw that broke the camel's back' was on this. It was speaking to a street pastor just a week ago who desribed her relationship with god. To condense it down it was basically this; She said he was so perfect and we could never be. We could only aspire to it.

That is the scope of the relationship. Let's personify it a little. Imagine you were married to someone. And every day they said to you that you were not up to their standard. That you could never quite be perfect certainly not in comparison to them that they were the ideal model, the gold standard. First of all such a relationship would clearly not be on equal terms. Secondly the relationship would demonstrate power, control. Some would consider it to be, let's be frank about this, psychological abuse. Perhaps a better comparison for a 'creator' would be as casting them as the mother/father in parent/child relationship.

I would not tolerate such a relationship materially. I cannot tolerate a spiritual one.
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Obamaisdabest
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2010, 07:12:37 AM »

Good on you dude.

Hopefully you will one day post a thread entitled "My journey to Socialism". Wink
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afleitch
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2010, 07:19:13 AM »


Damn that rule Tongue Well spotted.
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Franzl
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2010, 07:31:20 AM »

Hopefully you will one day post a thread entitled "My journey to Socialism". Wink

That would suggest mental illness Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2010, 07:33:42 AM »

Hopefully you will one day post a thread entitled "My journey to Socialism". Wink

That would suggest mental illness Smiley

You would know. Wink
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2010, 08:03:37 AM »

Nicely done
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2010, 08:29:54 AM »

*hughughug*

This must be hard on you, but I'm glad you're being true to yourself Smiley
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Torie
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2010, 10:47:02 AM »

Yes, religion, at least the Christian one, has this paternal aspect to its view of God. Even if I had been raised by persons of faith (and I was not), I suspect that aspect would have driven me away anyway in rather short order.I am pretty hard wired to question authority, and then question it some more, irrespective of its purported provenance.

Perhaps Afleitch, you will get to the point where the issue really ceases to have much psychological impact on you. In the end, you can't do anything about what is, or is not, and if you have your own set of reasonable ethics, what real impact will it really have on your life anyway, as to what you believe, one way or the other?  Good luck.
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2010, 12:53:36 PM »

tl;dr
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Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
jmfcst
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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2010, 01:14:01 PM »


his post simply denied Christ and exchanged Christianity for a lie, just like the scripture predicted:

2Pet 2:1  "They will introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"

Rom 1:25 "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.  Amen.   26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done...32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them"

---

For those who are theists the burden of proof must be on them. Particularly for Christians.

As it has already been explained to you in the past:  Romans ch 1 is directed at the church and is regarding mutually consenting same-sex sex among those who have been made aware of the word of God.  It has nothing to do with pagans who have never heard the gospel.

The proof for you is in your own words, which have fulfilled scripture.  In fact, you even took the trouble to expound upon the creature’s right to remain independent from it’s Creator.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2010, 01:31:55 PM »

Amen JMF.
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afleitch
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« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2010, 01:39:27 PM »


Baaa. Smiley
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The Mikado
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2010, 01:40:18 PM »

Let's match a quote with a quote:

Quote from: Restricted
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ilikeverin
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2010, 01:41:10 PM »


his post simply denied Christ and exchanged Christianity for a lie, just like the scripture predicted:

2Pet 2:1  "They will introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"

Rom 1:25 "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.  Amen.   26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done...32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them"

---

For those who are theists the burden of proof must be on them. Particularly for Christians.

As it has already been explained to you in the past:  Romans ch 1 is directed at the church and is regarding mutually consenting same-sex sex among those who have been made aware of the word of God.  It has nothing to do with pagans who have never heard the gospel.

The proof for you is in your own words, which have fulfilled scripture.  In fact, you even took the trouble to expound upon the creature’s right to remain independent from it’s Creator.


I'm glad you're glad afleitch isn't Christian anymore, and I look forward to your eradication of the liberal Christian plague upon our society.  In the future, we should consider pre-screening, to keep him and his type out.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 01:42:56 PM »


1 person has to stick by him afleitch.......the rest of us aren't lined up to do it.  Wink
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afleitch
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2010, 01:46:57 PM »
« Edited: June 16, 2010, 01:56:19 PM by afleitch »


He's still in bubble. As I outlined my position hasn't changed on the 'message'; it's just I don't believe the messenger was divine nor did he come from anything divine.
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The Mikado
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 01:48:56 PM »


That some fancy new Scottish pronunciation of "divine?"
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afleitch
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2010, 01:56:01 PM »


It's actually a common surname in my part of Scotland Smiley That's probably where that came from!
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Gren
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2010, 02:17:36 PM »

I'm sure the scriptures predicted this, jmfcst, but actually, anyone who writes something as unbelievable as the Bible can foretell that its words will be denied by some people.

Anyway, regarding to afleitch's decision, I think it is a good one. We don't need religion to have a good life and do the right things, and that's a fact.
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CubOB
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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2010, 02:27:30 PM »


It's actually a common surname in my part of Scotland Smiley That's probably where that came from!

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StatesRights
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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2010, 02:50:17 PM »


He's still in bubble. As I outlined my position hasn't changed on the 'message'; it's just I don't believe the messenger was divine nor did he come from anything divine.

I'm not in a "bubble" I choose to believe and have faith in God out of my own free will. I disagree with your belief and I wish that you wouldn't have chosen to go that way but I respect your free will. JMF is correct in the way he stated that separation of faith. We may not always like all the answers we hear but they are sometimes rooted in truth.
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afleitch
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2010, 02:53:34 PM »


He's still in bubble. As I outlined my position hasn't changed on the 'message'; it's just I don't believe the messenger was divine nor did he come from anything divine.

I'm not in a "bubble" I choose to believe and have faith in God out of my own free will. I disagree with your belief and I wish that you wouldn't have chosen to go that way but I respect your free will. JMF is correct in the way he stated that separation of faith. We may not always like all the answers we hear but they are sometimes rooted in truth.

I should have made clear that I was directing that more an jmf than yourself. However you cannot state that jmf's answers are 'rooted in truth,' because he made his observation from the Bible, which has not been proven as the truth (or a truth) in any way. Therefore jmfcst is not appealing to 'truth' in his judgment.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2010, 02:55:20 PM »


He's still in bubble. As I outlined my position hasn't changed on the 'message'; it's just I don't believe the messenger was divine nor did he come from anything divine.

I'm not in a "bubble" I choose to believe and have faith in God out of my own free will. I disagree with your belief and I wish that you wouldn't have chosen to go that way but I respect your free will. JMF is correct in the way he stated that separation of faith. We may not always like all the answers we hear but they are sometimes rooted in truth.

I should have made clear that I was directing that more an jmf than yourself. However you cannot state that jmf's answers are 'rooted in truth,' because he made his observation from the Bible, which has not been proven as the truth (or a truth) in any way. Therefore jmfcst is not appealing to 'truth' in his judgment.

Not the truth according to you. But for hundreds of millions of others, including myself, it is the truth.
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afleitch
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2010, 03:04:13 PM »


He's still in bubble. As I outlined my position hasn't changed on the 'message'; it's just I don't believe the messenger was divine nor did he come from anything divine.

I'm not in a "bubble" I choose to believe and have faith in God out of my own free will. I disagree with your belief and I wish that you wouldn't have chosen to go that way but I respect your free will. JMF is correct in the way he stated that separation of faith. We may not always like all the answers we hear but they are sometimes rooted in truth.

I should have made clear that I was directing that more an jmf than yourself. However you cannot state that jmf's answers are 'rooted in truth,' because he made his observation from the Bible, which has not been proven as the truth (or a truth) in any way. Therefore jmfcst is not appealing to 'truth' in his judgment.

Not the truth according to you. But for hundreds of millions of others, including myself, it is the truth.

Then it us to you to prove that bthis is the case and therefore the truth. I have said on the balance of probabilites and the evidence and understanding that we have that the existence of a god and certainly a creator god with us in mind is highly improbable. Again I have only one thing to argue; that there is no god. You have several; firstly that there is a god, secondly that there is only one, thirdly that it's 'yours' (i.e the Abrahamic god and not Vishnu or Zeus), fourthly that while it's Abrahamic it's a god that sent his son and isn't the god that sent Mohammed or hasn't sent anyone yet and fifthly that the book to which you and jmfcst describe is divinely inspired 100% on the nail truth. You have to validate all of this before it can be regarded as the 'truth' and that I am shying away from it.
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Grumpier Than Uncle Joe
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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2010, 03:07:01 PM »

Why are you guys arguing with Andrew?  He said what he believes without attacking anyone's belief system.

Agree with it or not, he expressed his thoughts in a well-written way.

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