My journey to athiesm.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

How many converts do you think he has secured so far on this forum?  I take it efficacy is not a factor in the algorithm when it comes to preaching "the word," is it?

How many converts did Noah secure?  How many converts did Lot secure?  To give a testimony is only the responiblity of a Christian, it is God who does the securing.

this thread as sad as it is doesn't come as a surprise, for it was always obvious Andrew had never met Christ.  Hopefully, he will understand one day that his faith was simply a bunch of religion and was not a relationship with God.

1John 2:19-20 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.  20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth."

[afleitch]

How many converts do you think he has secured so far on this forum?  I take it efficacy is not a factor in the algorithm when it comes to preaching "the word," is it?

How many converts did Noah secure?  How many converts did Lot secure?  To give a testimony is only the responiblity of a Christian, it is God who does the securing.

this thread as sad as it is doesn't come as a surprise, for it was always obvious Andrew had never met Christ.  Hopefully, he will understand one day that his faith was simply a bunch of religion and was not a relationship with God.

1John 2:19-20 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.  20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth."

Again prove to me that Noah existed, that Lot existed. Prove to me that there is a god, only one god, that there are no other, that this one god is Abrahamic, but the Abrahamic god that sent a son (not the one who has yet to send it or who also sent Mohammed), that this god revealed himself to an illiterate desert people and that what they wrote down is 100% the truth (and has since been passed down correctly)

Again while your quotations may be as intriguing as a conversation between Peter Pan and Wendy they are of the same weight and value. They carry no 'truth' because you have not proven that is the truth and the only truth.

[Marokai Backbeat]

It takes quite alot of reflection and serious consideration, and though I've never been that religious before I started to consider myself an Atheist anyway, I do understand the amount of personal deliberation and tough realization it can take to overcome things such as religious belief. I'm glad for you, Afleitch. Cheers.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Good job. I agree with Marokai that it takes a lot of courage to shake off ideas that you feel are no longer right for you. I actually made the journey from Atheism to Christianity (or rather what my limited 13-year old intellect at the time understood to be Christianity) back to Atheism, so I think, just maybe, I might share in a tiny bit of what you have gone through.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

tl;dr

his post simply denied Christ and exchanged Christianity for a lie, just like the scripture predicted:

2Pet 2:1  "They will introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them"

Rom 1:25 "God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised.  Amen.   26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done...32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them"

---

For those who are theists the burden of proof must be on them. Particularly for Christians.

As it has already been explained to you in the past:  Romans ch 1 is directed at the church and is regarding mutually consenting same-sex sex among those who have been made aware of the word of God.  It has nothing to do with pagans who have never heard the gospel.

The proof for you is in your own words, which have fulfilled scripture.  In fact, you even took the trouble to expound upon the creature’s right to remain independent from it’s Creator.

This is an example of what I find least attractive about jmfcst when he speaks about religion: his apparent monomania that anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ, chooses to do so because of a desire to engage in immoral behavior.  Leaving aside the question of whether the behavior he chose to bring up is immoral (something I don't expect aflietch or jmfcst to ever convince the other of their position on this particular subject), neither it nor any other immoral behavior (taking morality as covering only interpersonal interactions and not relations with the divine) was being mentioned in this thread until jmfcst chose to bring it up.  The original post in this thread would not need to have a single jot or tittle changed in it if afleitch and jmfcst were in complete agreement over the code of conduct that humans should follow.

That said, I don't agree with afleitch's conclusion that a rejection of deistic supremacy is logically sufficient to support an embrace of atheism.  I think both he and that street preacher he mentioned missed the point by focusing too much on God the King, and not enough on God the Father.

Without having to rely upon any scripture, one can make some basic inferences about the nature of a benevolent deity.  Such a being would have considerably more experience than any human could possibly hope to have, experience he could use to fashion a code of conduct that it would be to our benefit to follow, and which if he is benevolent would desire to make known to humanity in a fashion that humanity can comprehend.  Yet, just as sometimes a parent needs to tell his child "No" because the child is not capable of comprehending the reason why doing something is a really bad idea, it is not unreasonable that a benevolent deity might have to at times resort to such a method.

[afleitch]

It takes quite alot of reflection and serious consideration, and though I've never been that religious before I started to consider myself an Atheist anyway, I do understand the amount of personal deliberation and tough realization it can take to overcome things such as religious belief. I'm glad for you, Afleitch. Cheers.

    Good job. I agree with Marokai that it takes a lot of courage to shake off ideas that you feel are no longer right for you. I actually made the journey from Atheism to Christianity (or rather what my limited 13-year old intellect at the time understood to be Christianity) back to Atheism, so I think, just maybe, I might share in a tiny bit of what you have gone through.

Thank you It was not as difficult as I thought it would be. I've 'came out' before

 Much of the cultural aspect of religion; going to mass etc I had dropped some time ago. I stopped regularly attending mass when I was 16 when I protested at a bishops statement that affected me and was based on lies and fear. But while the 'worship' faded the attachment was still there. I was a critic, I continued to criticise but still to believe. Then I stopped believing.

It didn't make any sense; the fact I was being asked to suspend so much that I knew and understood about the world, people and myself in order to confirm with one book (or the people who clutched it and jabbed it with their finger)

It isn't real. And i'm actually glad it's not.

[afleitch]

That said, I don't agree with afleitch's conclusion that a rejection of deistic supremacy is logically sufficient to support an embrace of atheism.  I think both he and that street preacher he mentioned missed the point by focusing too much on God the King, and not enough on God the Father.

Without having to rely upon any scripture, one can make some basic inferences about the nature of a benevolent deity.  Such a being would have considerably more experience than any human could possibly hope to have, experience he could use to fashion a code of conduct that it would be to our benefit to follow, and which if he is benevolent would desire to make known to humanity in a fashion that humanity can comprehend.  Yet, just as sometimes a parent needs to tell his child "No" because the child is not capable of comprehending the reason why doing something is a really bad idea, it is not unreasonable that a benevolent deity might have to at times resort to such a method.

Actually it was very much focused on 'God the Father.' Which is why such a relationship for eternity ending (or beginning depending on how you look at it) with being 'fused' with a creator and loosing your own independence is horrifying. I do not wish to have the relationship with a god that I had with my own father when I was 5.

And to pick up a point, I see no reason to believe particulary from the Bible, Koran etc that their deity is in any way 'benevolent.'

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I have to say that there was no real 'journey' except away from atheism somewhat. I remember arguing with my mother over whether there was a God or not when I was six years ago (I was a non-believer then, it is strange but many of 'my' 'attitudes' I can see are rooted in the myself that I first can remember long ago at the beginning of my conscious life... I've pretty much always had a pretty existentalist worldview... I can't explain it but that cosmology always 'made sense' to me). I didn't even realize people really believed in the Bible (as in really believed) until I discovered the internet age 13.

But I'm pretty disillusioned with Atheism now.

[afleitch]

I have to say that there was no real 'journey' except away from atheism somewhat. I remember arguing with my mother over whether there was a God or not when I was six years ago (I was a non-believer then, it is strange but many of 'my' 'attitudes' I can see are rooted in the myself that I first can remember long ago at the beginning of my conscious life... I've pretty much always had a pretty existentalist worldview... I can't explain it but that cosmology always 'made sense' to me). I didn't even realize people really believed in the Bible (as in really believed) until I discovered the internet age 13.

But I'm pretty disillusioned with Atheism now.

Out of interest what would you consider yourself ? (and I know you're not one for labels )

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I have to say that there was no real 'journey' except away from atheism somewhat. I remember arguing with my mother over whether there was a God or not when I was six years ago (I was a non-believer then, it is strange but many of 'my' 'attitudes' I can see are rooted in the myself that I first can remember long ago at the beginning of my conscious life... I've pretty much always had a pretty existentalist worldview... I can't explain it but that cosmology always 'made sense' to me). I didn't even realize people really believed in the Bible (as in really believed) until I discovered the internet age 13.

But I'm pretty disillusioned with Atheism now.

Out of interest what would you consider yourself ? (and I know you're not one for labels )

I pretty much hate defining myself... so you have put me on the spot. I would say I suffer from Jaded Intellectualism towards everything (incl. religion) and a manic dislike of the pseudo-intellectual puffery that is 'new Atheism' (ie. Sam Harris, Dawkins, Hitchkens, et cetera, et bloody cetera). What I am... I don't really know. I don't think I am anything... I just happen to have alot of things.

But if want me to stop being so obtuse: non-believer. In Everything.

[afleitch]

But if want me to stop being so obtuse: non-believer. In Everything.

Good man

[Tetro Kornbluth]

But if want me to stop being so obtuse: non-believer. In Everything.

Good man

How so?

I think self-confessed doubt is far more honest (and thus moral) than pseudo-belief.

On this note, while I am thinking about it, I think the English language should be changed to better suit the ambiguity of belief and 'being one's self'. We should drop 'to be' in many cases and replace it with 'to have'. So "I am a Christian" is wrong but "I have Christianity" is correct or "I am heterosexual" is wrong but "I have heterosexuality" is correct.

Just a thought.

[ilikeverin]

I'm glad you're glad afleitch isn't Christian anymore, and I look forward to your eradication of the liberal Christian plague upon our society.  In the future, we should consider pre-screening, to keep him and his type out.

I never said that.  Do you have anything truthful to say or is your whole point based off a smear?

You're right; I apologize.  I had forgot to put my jmfcst-goggles on when I read your post.  I had been hoping you would have at least avoided quoting the Bible at him, like you did in his marriage thread, but my reaction was completely over the top.

[afleitch]

I'm glad you're glad afleitch isn't Christian anymore, and I look forward to your eradication of the liberal Christian plague upon our society.  In the future, we should consider pre-screening, to keep him and his type out.

I never said that.  Do you have anything truthful to say or is your whole point based off a smear?

You're right; I apologize.  I had forgot to put my jmfcst-goggles on when I read your post.  I had been hoping you would have at least avoided quoting the Bible at him, like you did in his marriage thread, but my reaction was completely over the top.

Don't feel bad It's all he's got and he makes very poor or very irrelevant use of it.

[MaxQue]

We lost another sane Catholic... Congrats, afleitch. You made the effort of a real thought of your belief, a thing than most people doesn't do. Congrats. I'm proud, even if I disagree with your conclusion.

[ilikeverin]

I'm glad you're glad afleitch isn't Christian anymore, and I look forward to your eradication of the liberal Christian plague upon our society.  In the future, we should consider pre-screening, to keep him and his type out.

I never said that.  Do you have anything truthful to say or is your whole point based off a smear?

You're right; I apologize.  I had forgot to put my jmfcst-goggles on when I read your post.  I had been hoping you would have at least avoided quoting the Bible at him, like you did in his marriage thread, but my reaction was completely over the top.

Don't feel bad It's all he's got and he makes very poor or very irrelevant use of it.

I've seen him be nice before, though, and it's the end of an era, and it's all very sad, why isn't he being sad?

[afleitch]

I'm glad you're glad afleitch isn't Christian anymore, and I look forward to your eradication of the liberal Christian plague upon our society.  In the future, we should consider pre-screening, to keep him and his type out.

I never said that.  Do you have anything truthful to say or is your whole point based off a smear?

You're right; I apologize.  I had forgot to put my jmfcst-goggles on when I read your post.  I had been hoping you would have at least avoided quoting the Bible at him, like you did in his marriage thread, but my reaction was completely over the top.

Don't feel bad It's all he's got and he makes very poor or very irrelevant use of it.

I've seen him be nice before, though, and it's the end of an era, and it's all very sad, why isn't he being sad?

I have always believed, and I am sure I have said this on before there is a high probability that he is bi-polar with the potential to swing from extreme laid back highs to agressive lows. That is the best explanation I can find from 6 and a half years of interaction with him.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I have to say that there was no real 'journey' except away from atheism somewhat. I remember arguing with my mother over whether there was a God or not when I was six years ago (I was a non-believer then, it is strange but many of 'my' 'attitudes' I can see are rooted in the myself that I first can remember long ago at the beginning of my conscious life... I've pretty much always had a pretty existentalist worldview... I can't explain it but that cosmology always 'made sense' to me). I didn't even realize people really believed in the Bible (as in really believed) until I discovered the internet age 13.

But I'm pretty disillusioned with Atheism now.

Out of interest what would you consider yourself ? (and I know you're not one for labels )

I pretty much hate defining myself... so you have put me on the spot. I would say I suffer from Jaded Intellectualism towards everything (incl. religion) and a manic dislike of the pseudo-intellectual puffery that is 'new Atheism' (ie. Sam Harris, Dawkins, Hitchkens, et cetera, et bloody cetera). What I am... I don't really know. I don't think I am anything... I just happen to have alot of things.

But if want me to stop being so obtuse: non-believer. In Everything.

     I actually feel largely the same way. As time goes on, the less certain I am that there is anything I genuinely believe in & the more certain that the bulk of my worldview is informed solely by my reactions against various things that I find repellant.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

I have to say that there was no real 'journey' except away from atheism somewhat. I remember arguing with my mother over whether there was a God or not when I was six years ago (I was a non-believer then, it is strange but many of 'my' 'attitudes' I can see are rooted in the myself that I first can remember long ago at the beginning of my conscious life... I've pretty much always had a pretty existentalist worldview... I can't explain it but that cosmology always 'made sense' to me). I didn't even realize people really believed in the Bible (as in really believed) until I discovered the internet age 13.

But I'm pretty disillusioned with Atheism now.

Out of interest what would you consider yourself ? (and I know you're not one for labels )

I pretty much hate defining myself... so you have put me on the spot. I would say I suffer from Jaded Intellectualism towards everything (incl. religion) and a manic dislike of the pseudo-intellectual puffery that is 'new Atheism' (ie. Sam Harris, Dawkins, Hitchkens, et cetera, et bloody cetera). What I am... I don't really know. I don't think I am anything... I just happen to have alot of things.

But if want me to stop being so obtuse: non-believer. In Everything.

     I actually feel largely the same way. As time goes on, the less certain I am that there is anything I genuinely believe in & the more certain that the bulk of my worldview is informed solely by my reactions against various things that I find repellant.

The question then to ask is: Is that a sign of emptiness?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Afleitch, it's good that you're thinking about this stuff and being true to yourself. 

Though I must make one comment about Jmfcst trotting out the Bible verses:  Yes, we know what your faith is.  Your attempts to wag your finger at us does nothing but isolate yourself and push others away.  It is ridiculous to try to scare people into your faith and then simply tell them it was expected when they reject your scare tactics.  That's just laziness in the most heretical way.

Anyway, I often doubt the existence of God.  I believe that Jesus was a man that existed when the Bible says he existed.  Whether he was also God and the redeemer of mankind, I will never know.  Jmfcst will never know it either.  Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.  You can't prove or disprove the existence of God or that Christ was his son and him in the form of man all the same. 

Strong faith in such beliefs can reassure you.  But your faith cannot reassure anybody else.  Only encouragement of their own faith can help that.  Scaring them into believing it by threatening eternal hellfire has probably, more than any other thing, been the bane of the Christian faith. 

I think I'm on a similar journey as you Afleitch, questioning my beliefs.  I don't think God created man and then encouraged all sorts of different religions and beliefs.  I do not believe a Buddhist burns in hell because he never heard the gospel.  I do not believe a baby burns because he didn't have holy water sprinkled on his head.  I don't believe you burn because you haven't taken part in the Eucharist.  I don't believe the bread or wine turns into anything that any other bread or wine doesn't turn into upon consumption.  I don't believe God is particularly worried about what goes on on earth.  I believe we are left to our own devices, for better or for worse, and that that is the ultimate sign of love by God.  I believe God gave us the minds and hearts to ruin or fix our planet and regardless of whether we survive or die off, God has other children out there.

I'd've been burned at the stake 700 years ago for saying these things.  But ehhh... the earth was only a couple thousand years old and it was most certainly the center of the universe and it was shaped like a disc.  We change.  We learn.  We move on.  And I don't think God had any direct thing to do with any of it.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I have to say that there was no real 'journey' except away from atheism somewhat. I remember arguing with my mother over whether there was a God or not when I was six years ago (I was a non-believer then, it is strange but many of 'my' 'attitudes' I can see are rooted in the myself that I first can remember long ago at the beginning of my conscious life... I've pretty much always had a pretty existentalist worldview... I can't explain it but that cosmology always 'made sense' to me). I didn't even realize people really believed in the Bible (as in really believed) until I discovered the internet age 13.

But I'm pretty disillusioned with Atheism now.

Out of interest what would you consider yourself ? (and I know you're not one for labels )

I pretty much hate defining myself... so you have put me on the spot. I would say I suffer from Jaded Intellectualism towards everything (incl. religion) and a manic dislike of the pseudo-intellectual puffery that is 'new Atheism' (ie. Sam Harris, Dawkins, Hitchkens, et cetera, et bloody cetera). What I am... I don't really know. I don't think I am anything... I just happen to have alot of things.

But if want me to stop being so obtuse: non-believer. In Everything.

     I actually feel largely the same way. As time goes on, the less certain I am that there is anything I genuinely believe in & the more certain that the bulk of my worldview is informed solely by my reactions against various things that I find repellant.

The question then to ask is: Is that a sign of emptiness?

     Only if you let it be. We are where we are; if you can find fulfillment in life, then you've done well for yourself, but you can only make meaning for yourself.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Though I must make one comment about Jmfcst trotting out the Bible verses:  Yes, we know what your faith is.  Your attempts to wag your finger at us does nothing but isolate yourself and push others away.  It is ridiculous to try to scare people into your faith and then simply tell them it was expected when they reject your scare tactics.  That's just laziness in the most heretical way.

if anyone has ever paid attention to my posts, they know I teach one can't choose to accept Christ, rather that it is a calling...so I don't believe one can be scared into a relationship with Christ.

Your whole point is based on false assumptions of what I believe

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Though I must make one comment about Jmfcst trotting out the Bible verses:  Yes, we know what your faith is.  Your attempts to wag your finger at us does nothing but isolate yourself and push others away.  It is ridiculous to try to scare people into your faith and then simply tell them it was expected when they reject your scare tactics.  That's just laziness in the most heretical way.

if anyone has ever paid attention to my posts, they know I teach one can't choose to accept Christ, rather that it is a calling...so I don't believe one can be scared into a relationship with Christ.

Your whole point is based on false assumptions of what I believe

He's talking about how you act, not what you believe.

[John Dibble]

Wow, can't believe I didn't see this earlier. Anywho, welcome to the club! I know this can be a difficult transition for some people, but I know you're a strong individual so you'll get through it.

I'll respond to some things you and others have said in this thread later when I have some time.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Again prove to me that Noah existed, that Lot existed. Prove to me that there is a god, only one god, that there are no other

Considering you do know something about scripture, this is a pretty ignorant strawman argument since the bible never offers “proof” to the masses, but rather the only thing it offers is the testimony of others.  Such proof would immediately invalidate the gift of faith, which would leave only works and would therefore close the pathway to salvation. 

Proof only comes to whom God has granted faith, like Paul’s conversion experience on the road to Damascus.  Once he met Christ, Paul never had to cross that bridge again – he didn’t have to constantly reevaluate whether or not he believed.  His relationship with Christ was more real than life itself and he would have considered it insane to reconsider his belief in God.  And I can witness to how Paul felt because I feel the exact same way because I too have met Jesus Christ.  And in over 17 years of being of Christian, I have never known anyone who has met Christ and then went on to later deny Christ.  I have seen some fall from grace by falling back into sin, but I’ve never seen anyone denounce Christ. 

So, the only proof I can offer you is the word of God.  The fact that you are openly turning your back on the bible and promoting the creature’s right to remain independent from and unyielding to the Creator is the exact fulfillment of “they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped created things instead of the Creator”.  You simply want the creature to have the right to retain its image instead of conforming to the image of the Creator.  So the proof to you that should prompt you to change course is that the bible has precisely predicted and laid bare your entire argument.  But, of course, this thread didn’t tell me anything that I didn’t discern from you years ago – only someone completely blind would have ever considered that you had a walk with Jesus Christ.  You’ve done nothing religiously on this board but twist scripture to justify your lifestyle, there was never a point in time where you shared any commonality with the heroes presented in scripture.  You never accepted the supremacy of Christ – that he is the only path to salvation.  You never accepted the historical accuracy of the bible as the apostles did.  You never had a testimony.  You never spoke about God being active in your life.  You never fit into the fabric and landscape of scripture because only someone in Christ can do so.  You simply grew up in a Christian school and accepted only the things that made you comfortable....I don’t say all this to be argumentative, for your rejection of Christ has already proven it. 

Your “faith” became more and more of a charade which you finally outgrew, which is a good thing because you are finally being honest about your beliefs.  I still hope someday you will shed the crowd you’re hanging around (because I have discerned from the beginning that the guy posting with you has a lot of inward hostility towards God and the bible) and find a private place to sincerely search for God, because Christ still died for you.