Dutch director killed by islamist fanatic!

[CARLHAYDEN]

Oh, and by the way, a long winded diatribe is NOT a fact.

Another case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I notice that you've decided not to answer my specific examples as well.

State one FACT where Scientologists are "persecuted" against.

And while we are there, perhaps you could name one FACT which states Europe will delve into irrelevancy, as opposed to your personal interpretation.

Here's a link about the banning of the political party in Belgium:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/10/wbelg10.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/10/ixworld.html

[Michael Z]

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How ironic that the name of the link should include the word "opinion", when it's meant to be one of those "facts" you were going to subside me with. And how ironic that it doesn't mention the alleged persecution of Scientologists, but simply the reaction to a propaganda campaign started by the "church" of Scientology as a reaction to them not being granted church status by the German government. As for what the state of Bavaria does, to judge all of Germany according to Bavaria is like judging all of the US according to Alabama. It's foolhardy. And that's not just a mere opinion, believe me. Ask Lewis Trondheim.

In any case, none of these links state that Europe will delve into irrelevancy, as you did.

Heck, I even agree with most of these articles - but then show me something new and something I did not agree with five years ago. At any rate, it still doesn't prove your point.

[CARLHAYDEN]

Read your own post.

You acknowedge that the government grants 'church status.'

So, if you don't meet the standard of political correctness in Germany, you cann't be recognized as a church?

LOL.

You really are dense.

[Michael Z]

You really are dense.

This really proves my point. You obviously can't debate without adding personal insults, which illustrates that you're an extremely hate-filled individual.

I can take a good argument, but remarks like this one show that you don't care one bit about convincing the other side - you just want to belittle, patronise, and generally throw insults at them. QED.

[Gustaf]

The former vice-president of Vlaams Blok had to resign after he claimed that the Holocaust was widely exaggerated. Belgium has always been a racist country and Vlaams Blok is a disgusting party.

Au, please don't such a hypocritical idiot. Banning a party isn't ok but killing people is? Please.

[CARLHAYDEN]

I don't know to whom your post was directed.

However, both the remark you tell us was made by the former vice-president of Vlaams Block and the action of the government of Belgium should be repudiated.

The difference is the WORDS of an INDIVIDUAL (we have freedom of speech in the  United States) versus the ACTION
of a GOVERNMENT!

[AuH2O]

The former vice-president of Vlaams Blok had to resign after he claimed that the Holocaust was widely exaggerated. Belgium has always been a racist country and Vlaams Blok is a disgusting party.

Au, please don't such a hypocritical idiot. Banning a party isn't ok but killing people is? Please.

Of course the Holocaust is exaggerated. Actually Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belong is not anti-Zionist.

Violence is not "OK" except when there is no alternative. If the illegal occupation government ruling Belgium bans democratically elected parties, then the only option is to change the structure of the government via force.

Any judge issuing illegal orders or members of the oppressor government are legitimate targets in the interest of promoting freedom.

[freek]

Mea culpa!

Actually, the party leader murdered was Pim Fortuyn of the Netherlands  on May 6, 2002.

His murderer is eligible for parole in 2014.

No, he is released om May 6, 2014. He got an 18-year sentence (which is extremely long for a single murder committed by someone without a criminal record). In the Netherlands, a prisoner is released after twothirds of his sentence.

[Jens]

Of course the Holocaust is exaggerated. Actually Vlaams Blok/Vlaams Belong is not anti-Zionist.

The Holocaust is one of the most well documented historical "events" ever. And what the VP of Vlaams Blok was trying to say was in the lines of British "historian" David Irving and other revisionist who claim that there was no real holocaust and the numbers 4-6 millions are exaggerated. They claim that the only Jews that died died because of hunger! As the events has faded and most of the Holocaust suvivors died people like Irving has tried to prove that the Holocaust did not take place using bogus scientific evidence and manipulated documents. Their "evidence is used by numerous neo-nazi and rightwing groups in Europe and North America as proof of the "Grand Zionist Conspiracy"

The Holocaust is not exaggerated. Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Birkenau is not exaggerations.  These extermination camps did exist and denying that is an extremely dangerous policy

[AuH2O]

Um, no, it's not "well documented" at all.

First of all, one of the convenient things about the way so many people allegedly died is that there are no remains. So the whole point is that physical evidence doesn't exist, not to confirm the number of dead.

The facts:

- millions of Jews were interned or used in work camps

- many died of starvation and disease because Germany's infastructure was destroyed by US-UK bombings

- many were killed by the Poles and Soviets

After all, every major "death" camp was, oddly, in territory occupied by the Soviets, who, oddly, did not let us inspect the sites for several years.

A number of academics are aware of this but are afraid to really talk about it.

Irving admits the number of dead Jews was still quite high, possibly a couple million, but relatively few were killed outright and many that were died at the hands of non-Germans.

Regardless, like I said, Vlaams Belong is not anti-Zionist or anti-Jewish. They just aren't run by Jews.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Um, no, it's not "well documented" at all.

Wrong. There is a lot of extremely credible evidence and eye witness accounts of the Holocaust.

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Bodies were found. Piles of glasses etc. were found. Mass graves still get dug up all over Eastern Europe.

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The words is "concentration camp". And later on things called "death camps" were built.

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Rubbish. The whole point of a concentration camp is to starve people to death. People were dying of starvation before the mass bombings.

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A sladerous lie with no evidence to back it up whatsoever. May I remind you that close to three million Catholic Poles were also killed in the Holocaust?

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Most Death Camps were built in occupied Poland because 4 Million Jews lived there before WW2. I thought this got taught in schools. And you may or may not have noticed that the U.S.S.R bordered Poland, so it's hardly suprising that Soviet troops got there first.
Besides a lot of Concentration Camps were found by British and American troops as well. There's video footage of British troops entering Belsen.

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Yawn

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A Court of Law found that Irving is a lier, a racist, an anti-semite and involved in Neo Nazi activity.
Remember?
When he sued Penguin Books et al?

[freek]

Regardless, like I said, Vlaams Belong is not anti-Zionist or anti-Jewish. They just aren't run by Jews.

Vlaams Blok tried to win the Jewish votes during the last elections, in 2003 and 2004. They were especially active in Antwerpen, which has a large (orthodox) Jewish community. The Blok had some success with this, at the time of the elections there were tensions between jews and muslims in Antwerpen, and the Blok was (and is) more anti-muslim than anti-jewish.

[Jens]

Um, no, it's not "well documented" at all.

Wrong. There is a lot of extremely credible evidence and eye witness accounts of the Holocaust.

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Bodies were found. Piles of glasses etc. were found. Mass graves still get dug up all over Eastern Europe.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The words is "concentration camp". And later on things called "death camps" were built.

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Rubbish. The whole point of a concentration camp is to starve people to death. People were dying of starvation before the mass bombings.

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A sladerous lie with no evidence to back it up whatsoever. May I remind you that close to three million Catholic Poles were also killed in the Holocaust?

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Most Death Camps were built in occupied Poland because 4 Million Jews lived there before WW2. I thought this got taught in schools. And you may or may not have noticed that the U.S.S.R bordered Poland, so it's hardly suprising that Soviet troops got there first.
Besides a lot of Concentration Camps were found by British and American troops as well. There's video footage of British troops entering Belsen.

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Yawn

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A Court of Law found that Irving is a lier, a racist, an anti-semite and involved in Neo Nazi activity.
Remember?
When he sued Penguin Books et al?

You took all my responds, Al, and you are right.
All the facts presented by AuH2O are the typical facts used by Neo-nazis and revisionists and are as I said manipulated and defies any serious historical methodology. Der Endlösung is thanks to the thoroughness of German bureaucrats well decribed and I frankly find it appalling that somebody still is trying to deny that it took place.

[Lunar]

The Germans, for all their faults during the period, were very good at keeping good documentation.  Goldie tries to paint it as suspicious that most of the death happened in the East, but it's really just plain silly.  Even on the Western side of Germany, you can see that the camps become more concentrated and deadlier the further East you looked.  Notice the lack of camps in France and the Netherlands, and then the existence of them all in Czech and whatnot.  Even if you deny that they were German death camps, they were most certainly German camps: which exposes the tendency for the Germans to build them closer to the Slavic countries.

Hitler, from his works, obviously had the intention of killing all of the Jews.  If it's a fact that he rounded them all up and put them in camps, why the skepticism over the resulting claims of genocide?

Just like every major event, there is enough room for conspiracy theories.

[afleitch]

And of course the majority of camps in Poland, were not actually in 'Poland' as the whole area had been annexed by Nazi Germany. If you want to know the extent of the holocaust, just ask any European Jewish family how many of their relatives made it past 1945. Thats all the evidence you need.

[AuH2O]

Obviously there is no point in responding to the same propaganda everyone spews out.

First, like I said, the Soviets did not let us see the camps. Explanation please.

Second, Hitler NEVER said ANYTHING about killing all the Jews in Europe. His actual plan at the start of the war was to send them to either Madagascar or Eastern Africa.

Once they were losing, Germany could not do this, so they put them in camps for the duration.

Most of the deaths were due to starvation because Germany could not supply the camps. German civilians were also starving in many cases.

It is also undisputed fact the Poles were responsible for many Jewish deaths... anyone arguing against that is obviously a propaganda tool.

EVEN THE BBC ADMITS IT:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1719790.stm

So, Al, go take your lies elsewhere. Marxist propaganda is not needed on this forum.

[Lunar]

Obviously there is no point in responding to the same propaganda everyone spews out.

Yup, we're all marxist propagandists while you are the only one who sees the true truth.

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I don't dispute that the Soviets were reponsible for a few mass graves, including the slaughtering of Poles.  However, keep in mind that secrecy doesn't admit guilt.  The Soviets didn't let military inspectors in anywhere in their country.

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Actually, Mein Kampf does mention the extermination of the Jews.

Even pretending like Hitler never said anything of the sort, is it that much of a leap from extreme racism and the rounding up of the Jews to the actual murder of them?
 

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This is true in the work camps. 

[patrick1]

Holocaust deniers all have hidden agendas and blatantly distort history.  99.9% are anti-semites.

[AuH2O]

Obviously there is no point in responding to the same propaganda everyone spews out.

Yup, we're all marxist propagandists while you are the only one who sees the true truth.

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I don't dispute that the Soviets were reponsible for a few mass graves, including the slaughtering of Poles.  However, keep in mind that secrecy doesn't admit guilt.  The Soviets didn't let military inspectors in anywhere in their country.

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Actually, Mein Kampf does mention the extermination of the Jews.

Even pretending like Hitler never said anything of the sort, is it that much of a leap from extreme racism and the rounding up of the Jews to the actual murder of them?
 

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This is true in the work camps. 

The camps weren't IN Russia. They were mostly in Poland. They was NO security reason to not let us in.

Why were the Allies not allowed to inspect them?

[Lunar]

The camps weren't IN Russia. They were mostly in Poland. They was NO security reason to not let is in.

Why were the Allies not allowed to inspect them?

The camps were in now Soviet territory.  The Soviets didn't allow the Allies in anywhere, if I recall correctly.

And secondly - I don't deny everything you said.  The Soviets had their own share of mass graves.  However, Soviet murders don't prove the Nazi genocide false.

[AuH2O]

No but they cast heavy doubt on the toll and, further, challenge the idea Germans are solely to blame for the "Holocaust," which along with the Inquisition is capitalized only because it affected Jews.

Unless you can find examples of other atocities treated in the same way.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Once they were losing, Germany could not do this, so they put them in camps for the duration.

The first camps were built in the '30's.

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Ah. Jedwabne. It's uncertain what actually happend there... I tend not to believe either side.
Either way(s) you cannot seriously claim that one massacre out in the boondacks is evidence of Poles being responsible for a large number of Jewish deaths. Relations between Catholics and Jews (while better than pretty much every other Eastern European country) were often strained during the Pilsudski et al era, the idea of either side killing each other was abhorrent. There were Jewish politicians, film stars, etc, etc. Jews had lived in Poland for centuries (especially around Lublin) and were an integral part of Poland.
About 4 Million Jewish Poles and 3 Million Catholic Poles were murdered in the Holocaust.
That is a fact.

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I am not a Marxist and resent being called one

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Holocaust deniers all have hidden agendas and blatantly distort history.  99.9% are anti-semites.

Very true.
There's some interesting video footage of Irving adressing a Neo Nazi (NPD I think) rally in Eastern Germany.

[Jens]

No but they cast heavy doubt on the toll and, further, challenge the idea Germans are solely to blame for the "Holocaust," which along with the Inquisition is capitalized only because it affected Jews.

Unless you can find examples of other atocities treated in the same way.

And many other. Not only Jews, but Romas, Jehovas Witnesses, homosexuals, handicapped, Slavs were part of the German Endlösnung or Holocaust.
The Inquisition did just affect Jews. Anybody with a religious point of view that the Catholic Church helt was in danger, especially herectics

[AuH2O]

Once they were losing, Germany could not do this, so they put them in camps for the duration.

The first camps were built in the '30's.

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Ah. Jedwabne. It's uncertain what actually happend there... I tend not to believe either side.
Either way(s) you cannot seriously claim that one massacre out in the boondacks is evidence of Poles being responsible for a large number of Jewish deaths. Relations between Catholics and Jews (while better than pretty much every other Eastern European country) were often strained during the Pilsudski et al era, the idea of either side killing each other was abhorrent. There were Jewish politicians, film stars, etc, etc. Jews had lived in Poland for centuries (especially around Lublin) and were an integral part of Poland.
About 4 Million Jewish Poles and 3 Million Catholic Poles were murdered in the Holocaust.
That is a fact.

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I am not a Marxist and resent being called one

No, Jews were not going to camps in "the 30s," except those that were arrested for their involvement in other causes (communism, etc.)

Actually, the Poles were killing Jews during WW1 as well, though it was the Russians that killed them in large numbers. In the Russians defense, they killed everyone else unlucky enough to be along their path of retreat.

Likewise, it is universally accepted that Germany was the most hospitable nation for Jews until the aftermath of WW1, when the French and British rape of Germany in Versailles- for the first time EVER- managed to foster extreme ethnic German nationalism.

In fact I did a presentation on this topic in Ethics the other day. My conclusion was that Britain was more responsible for WW2 than Germany because Britain unfairly demanded reparations and placed limits on German sovereignty.

It should also be noted that Britain was building a heavy bomber force before Hitler came to power, the sole purpose of which was to massacre German women and children in the event of war, since German air defenses would prevent pinpoint attacks (heck, the British were too cowardly to even fly during the day, as they dropped fire bombs on children sleeping instead).

By Kantian standards, the British were the most immoral agent in WW2, followed by the Russians, and the French. The Axis and the US would be tied with moderate immorality.