France bans the Burka and other veils

[YL]

I think it's a dreadful law. I understand the arguments regarding domestic abuse and womens' rights etc, but this isn't the answer. If there really is a higher percentage of domestic abuse cases in Muslim communities (which I doubt) then the solution is to investigate and prosecute those cases. I also don't think the answer to oppression is to impose another form of oppression - the only difference being who's imposing it.

I also feel that this particular law has been motivated by xenophobia and fear over immigration, and the debate about women's rights is almost an afterthought. I also want to say for the record that I don't think the burqa is a good thing, but this is absolutely the wrong way to go about dealing with these issues (the right way being improved access to education - and opportunities in general - for Muslim women).

I agree with this.

I don't think this is quite as blatant as the Swiss minaret ban, but it does seem to me that they are both products of the worrying level of Islamophobia in Europe at the moment.

[k-onmmunist]

Good for France. This rocks.

I'm surprised you like this. Add to the list of the few things we agree on.

[Bo]

Well, at least women can no longer wear the dreaded burqini.

[k-onmmunist]

Well, at least women can no longer wear the dreaded burqini.

Oh no.

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

[Franzl]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

[Franzl]

With all due respect, Antonio....couldn't that be used as an argument against any freedom of religion?

[Antonio the Sixth]

With all due respect, Antonio....couldn't that be used as an argument against any freedom of religion?

Of course, I never said I thought absolute freedom of religion was a good thing. You'd certainly know that an unlimited freedom, whatever it is, kills other freedoms. The only way to protect freedom is to limit it.

[afleitch]

In all it's a ban on 'veiling' and covering the face. The wording of the law will be put to the test through it's implimentation.

I am sorry if what I'm about to say concerns people, but personally I believe the state has a right to ensure that it's citizens are visable to other citizens; it's important for communication. We often need facial 'cues' to understand someones intent (the Aspergers makes it worse for me) or whether they are happy, or upset. I don't think you have an inherent human right to walk about with your face permanently covered (without a medical reason to do so)

[Хahar 🤔]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

And you decide this...how?

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

And you decide this...how?

It's all a matter of points of view of course. But you can admit the idea that a cloth which confines women and isolates them from the rest of the world isn't very individual freedom-friendly, I don't think it's that silly.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

This is absurd - freedom of religion means nothing if France can ban this.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Personally, I don't care of the 'submission/obligation by male to wear it' argument, since some wear it voluntarily, and according to all what I've heard and seen, I would even think that a majority could wear it by choice, for actual religion motives, or for pleasing the husband on his path to religion (then here it's an ambiguous choice but well, that's not the point anyhow), or, and more and more I'd say, especially by young girls, either by provocation toward 'France and French' or because the life is more easy for them where they live if they wear it, yeah, rough districts of France are not happy places for girls that would like to wear things like top tanks/skirts, males make a big police to girls there, and those that would show too much are easily called whores/bitches and they ruin their reputation and so on and so forth, that's in part why more and more wear veils there, and, some go to the extent to chose niqab.

By the way, the title of this thread is very wrong, France only bans all veils that hide the face, that's all, not all veils.

In that sense, ultimately, I would agree with the law, yeah, the fact for people to show the face could be something you can impose to people, no matter their religion, philosophy or whatever. For security and overall respect reasons, when you're in a public space, you don't hide yourself.

But, the very lame part of that thing, is that, France precisely already has a law that says you don't hide your face in public (except exceptions, that I guess are medical ones and stuffs like Carnival and other few special events). France's legislation doesn't need it at all. And guess what? Who pointed out the 1st that France doesn't need such a law because it already has what is needed to achieve its purpose? Front National.

That law comes out directly from Sarkozy's mind, it wasn't a public mediatic debate at all in the country, and, suddenly, during a national speech, he popped this out, and here it went, and blahblahblha, and the debate began, and apparently it could have even pushed more young girls to wear it mainly to provoke...

Then, ultimately I would agree with the law, but I would oppose it. First there is already one law then, this new law only stigmatize Muslims, that's all what it does. And, about the application of the already existing law, I would be very lax personally, a kind of very case to case thing, because what the f**k if the woman is forced by her husband to wear it? Then she'll finish blocked at home?? How brilliant.

Stigmatization and isolation, I oppose this law, but I agree on the principle.

Oh and, for all those who come with 'we should wear what we want', I hope they don't oppose nudity in public, because that's the same principle.

Hmm, about nudity in public spaces I'm mixed personally dunno, by now I'd say I'd ban it maybe, then, in short, and I come with nudity mainly to post my link, here's what I would ban in public spaces ultimately:

NSFW!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5ERiD7yRyd4/Sj0OhvZG7JI/AAAAAAAAD7E/Njmuym73AeA/s400/burqa-1.jpg

Yeah, I know, that would be a shame top ban this from the public spaces, but...

Well, yeah, that's also a big fantasy, 'what's under the burqa??', and some young provoking girls interviewed in media even play with that, saying 'hey! I'm not submissive! I'm very sexy under my niqab!'.

In short, that's just some silly excitation of which those who passed it shouldn't be proud, yeah, and doesn't help to exchange and speak between civilizations...

(a new challenge for the clothes law on this forum with my link btw, , can a girl who wear such thing be on the forum?? )

[Antonio the Sixth]

But, the very lame part of that thing, is that, France precisely already has a law that says you don't hide your face in public (except exceptions, that I guess are medical ones and stuffs like Carnival and other few special events). France's legislation doesn't need it at all. And guess what? Who pointed out the 1st that France doesn't need such a law because it already has what is needed to achieve its purpose? Front National.

That law comes out directly from Sarkozy's mind, it wasn't a public mediatic debate at all in the country, and, suddenly, during a national speech, he popped this out, and here it went, and blahblahblha, and the debate began, and apparently it could have even pushed more young girls to wear it mainly to provoke...

Indeed, that's why I oppose the law while agreeing with the principle. Sarkozy has the formidable ability to screw everything, whatever good its original principle could have been.

[Хahar 🤔]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

And you decide this...how?

It's all a matter of points of view of course. But you can admit the idea that a cloth which confines women and isolates them from the rest of the world isn't very individual freedom-friendly, I don't think it's that silly.

Banning things in the name of freedom certainly is silly.

[Holmes]

Sigh. Stupid. I don't care about the whole "freedom of religion" argument, why is the government telling citizens what and what not to wear? That's not up to them, it's none of their business.

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

And you decide this...how?

It's all a matter of points of view of course. But you can admit the idea that a cloth which confines women and isolates them from the rest of the world isn't very individual freedom-friendly, I don't think it's that silly.

Banning things in the name of freedom certainly is silly.

So banning slavery or child labor in the name of freedom is silly ?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

It needs to be remembered that the small number of Western Muslim women who do wear full-faced veils when in public will not be 'liberated' by such bans in any way at all. They will simply not appear in public. I'm not sure how this can be defended on any of the 'progressive' grounds sometimes used to justify such bans.
Of course, the reality of the situation is quite different. The purpose of such legislation is not to 'liberate' a small number of women. The purpose of such legislation is to make it quite clear to a minority group that it is not welcome.

[minionofmidas]

And to a much larger group than just those whose wives wear Burqahs, of course.

[Free Palestine]

Western culture has plenty of things that are misogynistic in nature, that women are raised to accept and not view as misogynistic.  If we're going to legislate to force equality of the sexes, we might as well ban women from taking their partner's past name, or ban strip clubs and censor much of the pop culture garbage that is on television.

[minionofmidas]

I say we force strip clubs to give 50% of stage time to male performers.

[k-onmmunist]

The solution is to focus on assimilating immigrants rather than multiculturalism, which has utterly failed in the UK, imo.

[The Mikado]

The solution is to focus on assimilating immigrants rather than multiculturalism, which has utterly failed in the UK, imo.

Great, get rid of multiculturalism.  You can start with the Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish.

Seriously, though, the policies you're advocating are over a century out of date and smack of the US' efforts to force Native American children into missions or Australian mixed-race kids into involuntary adoption.

[k-onmmunist]

The solution is to focus on assimilating immigrants rather than multiculturalism, which has utterly failed in the UK, imo.

Great, get rid of multiculturalism.  You can start with the Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish.

Seriously, though, the policies you're advocating are over a century out of date and smack of the US' efforts to force Native American children into missions or Australian mixed-race kids into involuntary adoption.

Ummm, no... you seem to have completely misunderstood what I said. I support a British culture not just an English one for a start off, and as for assimilation, I'm referring to being able to speak English and generally being in line with British cultural norms. Forcing women to cover their faces isn't normal in this country.