France bans the Burka and other veils

[Хahar 🤔]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

And you decide this...how?

It's all a matter of points of view of course. But you can admit the idea that a cloth which confines women and isolates them from the rest of the world isn't very individual freedom-friendly, I don't think it's that silly.

Banning things in the name of freedom certainly is silly.

So banning slavery or child labor in the name of freedom is silly ?

There are perfectly good reasons to ban things, but freedom is not one of them.

[Antonio the Sixth]

BTW, as I stated I think this law is an epic fail, but I also think it's worth debating, and I really can't stand all this "OMG FREDUM HATERZ OMG" rhetoric. Please, don't caricature a so complicated issue. For me, the State should ensure that no woman wears a Burqa, I just don't think a law is the right solution to achieve this goal.

Why should the state ensure that? Belongs to freedom of religion for me.

Freedom of religion should be limited when it harms individual freedom and maintains people in a state of submission.

And you decide this...how?

It's all a matter of points of view of course. But you can admit the idea that a cloth which confines women and isolates them from the rest of the world isn't very individual freedom-friendly, I don't think it's that silly.

Banning things in the name of freedom certainly is silly.

So banning slavery or child labor in the name of freedom is silly ?

There are perfectly good reasons to ban things, but freedom is not one of them.

Well, I disagree.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I support a British culture not just an English one for a start off,

But what is this unitary (and it must be unitary if can be used in the context of 'no multiculturalism') 'British culture', exactly? There isn't even a standard way of speaking English in England.

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If being able to speaking English well (because everyone in Britain can speak it at least a little bit) is an essential part of the 'national culture', then are old people from Gwynedd, western Anglesey and the Amman Valley no longer 'British'? Hardly any Muslims in Britain have much trouble with speaking English anyway; broken English is more a feature of various Christian immigrants (Poles, some west Africans, etc).

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Ignoring the problematic use of the term 'forcing', it isn't normal among the various Muslim communities in this country either.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And to a much larger group than just those whose wives wear Burqahs, of course.

Yeah. There was a post ag made about the madness in Arizona that seems related to that... wait a minute...

As a Jew, albeit non-practicing, I know, how I would react to a law banning the use  of human baby blood in ritual food made of wheat.

[k-onmmunist]

I support a British culture not just an English one for a start off,

But what is this unitary (and it must be unitary if can be used in the context of 'no multiculturalism') 'British culture', exactly? There isn't even a standard way of speaking English in England.

Well, a unitary British culture needs to be forged - maybe then we'd be a more united nation rather than the current collapsing union we are.

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If being able to speaking English well (because everyone in Britain can speak it at least a little bit) is an essential part of the 'national culture', then are old people from Gwynedd, western Anglesey and the Amman Valley no longer 'British'? Hardly any Muslims in Britain have much trouble with speaking English anyway; broken English is more a feature of various Christian immigrants (Poles, some west Africans, etc).

But these people are British, Al. They've lived here all their lives and they live within a British culture. Maybe they can't speak English fluently, but they can speak languages like Welsh which are just as much a part of this country as English. Also, my comment isn't against Muslim immigration only, its against all immigrants who dont immerse well.

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Ignoring the problematic use of the term 'forcing', it isn't normal among the various Muslim communities in this country either.

People should be brought up secularly and I don't think it can be considered anything other than brainwashing if they are brought up in a religion.

[Хahar 🤔]

People should be brought up secularly and I don't think it can be considered anything other than brainwashing if they are brought up in a religion.

Why didn't you say right away that you supported the Enver Hoxha solution? It would have saved everyone a lot of time.

[Gustaf]

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

[opebo]

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

Well, nobody's uncle throws acid in their face for refusing to wear high heels.  In fact I bet that's never happened in the history of the world.

[k-onmmunist]

Women aren't brainwashed into wearing high heels.

[Boris]

Well, what the frick are you guys supposed to expect? When you have a religion such as Islam manifest itself as negatively as it does, of course you're going to see ensuing backlash from the West. Sikhism and Hinduism aren't culturally European either, yet nobody (important) advocates banning turbans and dotheads. It's extremely silly that they're banning perceived symbols of Islam, as if that's going to secularize Muslim immigrants. Minarets and Burkas aren't the things that are blowing up buses and trains.

The solution is to focus on assimilating immigrants rather than multiculturalism, which has utterly failed in the UK, imo.

I dunno man, you guys seem to really dig the Chicken Tikka Masala.

[Хahar 🤔]

The solution is to focus on assimilating immigrants rather than multiculturalism, which has utterly failed in the UK, imo.

I dunno man, you guys seem to really dig the Chicken Tikka Masala.

That's not Indian, though.

[Deldem]

Europe: Clearly far more socially enlightened than America.

Seriously, this is as ridiculous as banning the minaret. This is racism very thinly disguised under the defense of "feminism." Europe's bigoted approach towards Muslims is utterly disgraceful, and I'm thankful we're miles ahead of them in that regard here in America. We may not always have harmony between our religious groups, but we sure as hell don't ban them because we don't like them. Muslims here are at the very least are able to practice their religion how they choose, unlike what many in Europe now advocate.

[Gustaf]

Women aren't brainwashed into wearing high heels.

Define brain-washed and show how it applies to burqas and not to high-heels (or any of the countless other things that we're brought up to do and believe in Western society).

[Gustaf]

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

Well, nobody's uncle throws acid in their face for refusing to wear high heels.  In fact I bet that's never happened in the history of the world.

And this happens how often with Muslim women in the West? I went to high school with a Muslim girl who never wore a burqa and she didn't get acid in her face during the many years that I knew her. In fact, hardly anyone in Sweden wears a burqa and I can't recall it leading to a single acid-incident despite our large muslim population.

Anyway, am I to understand that everything that has at some point been enforced with violence should be prohibited? I think your beloved prostitution might be in some danger then.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Plenty of western women get battered because they don't dress as their husbands or partners like, fwiw. I'm not sure that, as a society, we are in a strong position to moralise on this issue.

[dead0man]

Women aren't brainwashed into wearing high heels.

actually....

It's much more subtle and (I'd assume) less hostile, but there is a lot of pretty messed up things our culture requires of our women....if they want to "fit in".  You don't have to shave your legs if you're a woman, but people will look at and treat you differently if you don't.  You can shave your head if you're a woman, but people will look at you weird and treat you differently.

[Gustaf]

Women aren't brainwashed into wearing high heels.

actually....

It's much more subtle and (I'd assume) less hostile, but there is a lot of pretty messed up things our culture requires of our women....if they want to "fit in".  You don't have to shave your legs if you're a woman, but people will look at and treat you differently if you don't.  You can shave your head if you're a woman, but people will look at you weird and treat you differently.

Exactly. The crucial point is, of course, that muslim women in France can choose not to wear burqas. Arguing that they are brain-washed but the Western women aren't...I'm not saying it's the same thing but I think these issues are hovering around in the same grey area.

[opebo]

And this happens how often with Muslim women in the West? I went to high school with a Muslim girl who never wore a burqa and she didn't get acid in her face during the many years that I knew her. In fact, hardly anyone in Sweden wears a burqa and I can't recall it leading to a single acid-incident despite our large muslim population.

Anyway, am I to understand that everything that has at some point been enforced with violence should be prohibited? I think your beloved prostitution might be in some danger then.

Actually I don't support the ban on the offensive muslim head-dress, but I don't find it comparable to many things like high heels.  It is absolutely an active and extremely deleterious mechanism of oppression, and I wish it could be stamped out, but I'm not sure a ban is effective or workable.

Anyway perhaps the women whose menfolk corrected by acid are now hidden away under veil and in the Ha-reem, so you wouldn't know the condition of their faces.

[Gustaf]

And this happens how often with Muslim women in the West? I went to high school with a Muslim girl who never wore a burqa and she didn't get acid in her face during the many years that I knew her. In fact, hardly anyone in Sweden wears a burqa and I can't recall it leading to a single acid-incident despite our large muslim population.

Anyway, am I to understand that everything that has at some point been enforced with violence should be prohibited? I think your beloved prostitution might be in some danger then.

Actually I don't support the ban on the offensive muslim head-dress, but I don't find it comparable to many things like high heels.  It is absolutely an active and extremely deleterious mechanism of oppression, and I wish it could be stamped out, but I'm not sure a ban is effective or workable.

Anyway perhaps the women whose menfolk corrected by acid are now hidden away under veil and in the Ha-reem, so you wouldn't know the condition of their faces.

Lol. Why do you want to force your morality onto people? It seems a bit prudish to me.

After all, all our clothes merely exist because the state allows them, right?

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

After all, all our clothes merely exist because the state allows them, right?

Yeah, and most states ban nudity, right? Then it's not like if a ban of the covered face would be totally stupid/'fascist'. Once again I oppose any laws like that, and especially if it targets only one group of person, but would agree on the principle of uncovering the face.

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

The whole West would claim to be 'a bastion for enlightenment and progress' though I've yet to see which Western country wouldn't be touched by the more or less same average of xenophobia/islamophobia. Canada or NZ maybe? Maybe, don't know enough there to say.

It only has different manifestations according to countries, it's not like if suddenly 'dang!' it was the 1st big manifestation of islamophobia in West, it's just one more. Sarkozy is just someone who like to show that he can grow the balls, especially if the target is easy, then it gives that here, in the Western country which would have by far the biggest Muslim population with regular stats giving it at about 10% of the population.

The purpose of such legislation is to make it quite clear to a minority group that it is not welcome.

No, it's more subtle than that, you have to get what is one of the big stuffs in the background of the French psychology, which is:

'You are welcome here - and globally I would think it's sincere - but - as sincerely - if you're here then you do like people here.'

Then it's not to show that a minority isn't welcome, it's to show that if you're here or wanna come here, you have to assimilate yourself to an extent. I think the difference between both really is present here. Not to say some xenophobia toward those who have different cultural roots than Western ones isn't present here, it is, and concretely, even if you follow the code of the place, people could look at you twice, but the above aspect is present too.

More officially, and surely hypocritically, especially nowadays, it says, or hides itself behind, something like:

'In order to have equal chances and to live peacefully altogether in the Republic, we have to create the Republican Community, and to achieve this people have to renounce to a part of their identitary particularities.'

Well, big words overall, we're not taught this in schools directly, at least not as far as I remind, and it doesn't really have a concrete reality, it might at best be subtly diluted in the national psychology, but a part of something like that would still be present in the background I'd say.



And trivially, it would give:

'IL EEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT DEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSS...IIIIIIILLLLL A BU SON VERRE COMME LES AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUTTTTRRRREEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS...'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvC4ZvNcn1I&feature=related

Translation:

'HEEEEEEEEEEE IIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSS OOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUURRRRRSSSSSSSS...HEEEEEEEEEEEEE DRANK HIS GLASS LIKE OOOOOOOOOOOTHEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRSSSSSSS...'

See, it's really a community stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxMqsG6fDw&feature=related

For those interested, the more detailed choreography:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69SuSsc1jMc&feature=related

Look, all communities unite around this, youngs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPXt-urJPgg&feature=related

Olds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prneKWFAwfk&feature=related

Girls:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYElNBA_nms&feature=related
And look here, even the girl that could be Arab participates.

And if you reject it, of course you will be rejected from the community:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-ftTOT88xg&feature=related
He didn't drink then EEEEEWWWW-EEEEEEWWWW.

But, look, France is tolerant, it hasn't banned AA yet.

Poor French integration, summed to alcohol... I'm sure we can do better than that...

But, look! Arabs don't drink alcohol! See! They hate our culture! They are not like us!

(incidentally this cultural element, alcohol, was present in 2 of the latest big islamophobic  affairs here, Hortefeux and the 'Apéro Saucisson Pinard')



On a side note, seems I can't finish a post without trivial things here, I had typed it yesterday in the night but saved it because of a connexion problem and post it nevertheless. Who knows, maybe I would turn this way because all of this is so much about stupidity, from both sides, from Sarkozy with this law and its supporters, to the other side which uses burqa in a kind of reactionary/provocative way toward the Western/French culture, with the young not married/teen girls who wear it by provocation, the males who force their wives to wear it, certainly by provocation for some of them, the wives who feel forced to do that to please their husband, the young Muslim males who admire those who wear it, and all of this in a kind of cultural resistance fashion, still from both parts. With certainly a very few people in between, who would wear it because they would sincerely be religiously convinced of it...

And since we live in 2010, it leads guys in Pakistan to gather themselves against this, and here is one more contribution to spread the resentment toward Western world...

Stupidity is all over...

[k-onmmunist]

I don't see whats enlightened about allowing people to be indoctrinated.

[Gustaf]

I don't see whats enlightened about allowing people to be indoctrinated.

Allowing people to dress however they want is usually thought of as enlightened. I thought you were a transsexual, shouldn't you of all people have some understanding for not legislating peoples' clothes?

[k-onmmunist]

I don't see whats enlightened about allowing people to be indoctrinated.

Allowing people to dress however they want is usually thought of as enlightened. I thought you were a transsexual, shouldn't you of all people have some understanding for not legislating peoples' clothes?

My problem is with people being forced into dress in a certain way.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I don't see whats enlightened about allowing people to be indoctrinated.

Allowing people to dress however they want is usually thought of as enlightened. I thought you were a transsexual, shouldn't you of all people have some understanding for not legislating peoples' clothes?

Once again I hope all people going with that don't oppose nudity in public places.

[opebo]

Lol. Why do you want to force your morality onto people? It seems a bit prudish to me.

I'm not sure it is 'prudish' to have a negative reaction to religious beating up their womenfolk, but perhaps it is.  I've always found that S and M stuff off-putting.