Stop Red State Welfare
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 07:08:29 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Election Archive
  Election Archive
  2004 U.S. Presidential Election
  Stop Red State Welfare
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Stop Red State Welfare  (Read 3101 times)
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: November 03, 2004, 05:22:57 PM »

I heard this Idea today.  What do you guys think.

I know many of the republicans on this site are against income tax.  I have discussed before that much of the redistribution of weath in this country goes from the Blue States to the Red States.

I have shown these numbers before.

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:
D.C. ($6.17)
North Dakota ($2.03)
New Mexico ($1.89)
Mississippi ($1.84)
Alaska ($1.82)
West Virginia ($1.74)
Montana ($1.64)
Alabama ($1.61)
South Dakota ($1.59)
Arkansas ($1.53)

States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:
New Jersey ($0.62)
Connecticut ($0.64)
New Hampshire ($0.6
Nevada ($0.73)
Illinois ($0.77)
Minnesota ($0.77)
Colorado ($0.79)
Massachusetts ($0.79)
California ($0.81)
New York ($0.81)

Oregon is even at $1.00

So why don't we increase states rights.  End the Red State Welfare.  We can still tax in which ever way you want but lets have it so that it is a dollar in dollar out.  Everystate gets a dollar returned from the taxes that they send to the federal government to do the programs in their own state.  It seems fair to me. 

I can't see it happening because I think many of the people that talk big about ending welfare are hypocrits.  Look at the numbers though.  The red states are taking advantage of the blue states and as long as we are all just going to be concerned about our own interests lets really do it.

The more I think about it the more I think just end all Fedeeral Government programs.  The "liberal" states are just getting a raw deal out of the whole thing anyway.  End farm subsidies, road funding, water projects.  We'll take care of ourselves. 

Why should wealthy states have to pay for a government that promotes an agenda contrary to their own interests.  Especially when we don't know where the buck stops.
Logged
A18
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,794
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2004, 05:26:00 PM »

I'm for this.

But let's getting something straight: Republicans are not on Democratic welfare. States with more Republicans in them get benefits from states with more Democrats in them.

Real welfare is like you being on rich Republican welfare.
Logged
dazzleman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,777
Political Matrix
E: 1.88, S: 1.59

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2004, 05:30:35 PM »

This is one of the many great paradoxes of our modern political era.

The states that favor the greatest degree of wealth redistribution in Washington are getting the least out of it, because they are the wealthiest states.  And those who most oppose sending money to Washington are benefiting most from wealth redistribution that comes through Washington.

Another paradox is more at an individual level.  States with the highest income levels overall are the most unfriendly to a president who cut their taxes the most, while those with lower income levels are more supportive of tax cuts that don't benefit them as much as higher income people.

The values issues are also a bit of a paradox.  Many people in "liberal" states who hate social conservatives have a lower divorce rate, and a lower rate of illegitimacy, than those living in conservative states who vote based more upon Christian values.  And blacks, who are sometimes mentioned as social conservatives, have the highest incidence of things that social conservatives oppose.

There are many paradoxes in modern political life that I can't quite figure out...
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 05:53:13 PM »

Defacto Seccession!

The blue states, as often noted, have the bulk of the economic and intellectual capital of the entire nation.  (The exceptions are a few blue-voting areas of the Red States, like Austin, TX and the research triangle of NC.)
We should simply de facto succeed from the Union and then let the Red States beg for compromise.

Our cry will be "states rights" and we will defend civil rights, civil unions and abortion rights within our borders.  We will partly offset falling Federal taxes with higher state taxes, paying for health care, education and scientific research.     

We have the high incomes and will be gettting the bulk of the benefits from Bush's tax policies. We are willing to re-invest that money in carefully designed social programs.   We don't have to worry about the poor Red States masses moving here to take advantage of our generous benefits because we have married Gay People here (boo!).   

Our subsidy to the Red States will fall.  They can have their poverty, their guns, their pollution and their God.  They will try to force us to pay via Federal deficits to fund their outrageous farm subsidies, highway projects and pork-barrel nonsense.   We will combine our 45 Senate votes with those of a few principled or unsuspecting Repubs to put the Feds on "pay-as-you-go".   

Those of you in the reality-based community who are thinking of moving from a Red State to Europe can instead move to sunny California, or quaint Connecticut.   

I apologize in advance to those in the Red States whom we will be abandoning, but self-defense comes first and you are welcome here.

And before too long, the old progressive Urban-Rural coalition, where the rural folks agree not to screw the cities (in return for rural subsidies), may just reappear and we can re-unite as a nation.

Logged
A18
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,794
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2004, 05:56:23 PM »

State A
1 rich Republican, 9 poor Democrats

State B
2 middle class Republicans

Federal government uses rich guy's money throughout the nation...red state welfare.

It means absolutely nothing. The Democrats in the other states aren't funding red states. Hell, rich Republicans probably are.

If the south seceded, rich Republicans in the blue states would move south.
Logged
PrisonerOfHope
Rookie
**
Posts: 88
United States


Political Matrix
E: -4.70, S: -5.50

P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 06:10:22 PM »

This is one of the many great paradoxes of our modern political era.

The states that favor the greatest degree of wealth redistribution in Washington are getting the least out of it...

States with the highest income levels overall are the most unfriendly to a president who cut their taxes the most...

Many people in "liberal" states who hate social conservatives have a lower divorce rate, and a lower rate of illegitimacy, than those living in conservative states who vote based more upon Christian values...

There are many paradoxes in modern political life that I can't quite figure out...

The states that suffered the most from the 9/11 attacks NY,NJ,CT,DC,PA all voted overwhelmingly against the the 'anti-terrorist' president.
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2004, 06:14:07 PM »

Hey I'm not saying we actually secede.  I think you should be with this idea Phillip.  Lets do it end federal income tax.  I'm on board know.  Lets go.  Lets undo everything FDR did.  Shut down the Federal government.  Are businesses really going to move to states that have terrible education systems.  Come on.  We can send the uneducted jobs to China.  Numbers don't lie man.  

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=13785

The Blue states can put together are own health care plans (they almost did in California).  Kill the federal government.  This is the in for the Libertarian party.  The Libs have to realize that they could take the democratic party in a warm embrace.  

STATES RIGHTS!! STATES RIGHTS!!
Logged
A18
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,794
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2004, 06:17:32 PM »

Uh, every state has a terrible education system.
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2004, 07:15:15 PM »


http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2000/stateprofiles/ranking.asp

                                $/pupil     %w/ BA/S
New Jersey    $9,744    31.6%
Connecticut    $8,580    32.9%
New York     $8,525    29.3%
Alaska         $8,231    28.0%
Dist. Columbia    $8,048    42.5%
Rhode Island    $7,612    26.7%
Massachusetts    $7,331    35.5%
Delaware    $7,135    25.1%
Pennsylvania    $7,106    23.6%
Michigan       $6,938    23.6%
Wisconsin    $6,796    23.2%
Maryland      $6,755    33.1%
Vermont       $6,753    30.8%
Maine          $6,327    24.0%
Indiana       $6,157    20.6%
West Virginia    $6,076    16.1%
Minnesota    $6,005    29.8%
Wyoming      $5,971    23.4%
Illinois         $5,940    28.1%
Ohio            $5,936    21.9%
Oregon        $5,920    25.9%
New Hampshire    $5,920    30.2%
Nebraska    $5,848    24.8%
Virginia        $5,788    31.7%
Iowa           $5,738    22.2%
Washington    $5,734    29.7%
Hawaii         $5,633    27.9%
Kansas        $5,508    26.7%
Montana      $5,481    24.8%
Georgia       $5,369    24.4%
Florida         $5,360    24.1%
Colorado      $5,312    33.5%
Missouri       $5,306    23.9%
Texas          $5,267    24.5%
California     $5,258    28.5%
Kentucky     $5,155    18.8%
Nevada                    $5,084     18.6%
South Carolina    $5,048     22.7%
North Carolina    $4,929     23.4%
Oklahoma    $4,817     20.7%
North Dakota    $4,808     23.8%
Louisiana    $4,724     20.4%
New Mexico    $4,682     25.9%
Alabama                    $4,593     20.6%
Tennessee    $4,580     21.0%
Arkansas                    $4,535     19.7%
Idaho                    $4,447     22.6%
Arizona                    $4,413     23.2%
South Dakota    $4,375     23.6%
Mississippi    $4,039     17.7%
Utah                    $3,783      27.3%
Logged
A18
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,794
Political Matrix
E: 9.23, S: -6.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2004, 07:16:47 PM »

Yes, businesses will be willing to move to states that pay teachers less. Now if only that had something to do with the quality of education.
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2004, 04:02:35 AM »

I did give the % of students with a bachelor degree. 
But that asside, I thought you were against a big federal government.  You hate FDR.  Lets just end it all.  You call us liberal elitist, lets see how elite we can be and take care of our own states.  Sure the federal government is what made the US a superpower and we would have never defeated the Germans (let alone Communism) with out that level of organization

State             % of Pop in Poverty
                 2002–2003
United States   12.30%
New Hampshire   5.8
Minnesota   6.9
Maryland                   8.0
Connecticut   8.2
Delaware                   8.2
New Jersey   8.3
Iowa           9.1
Alaska         9.2
Vermont         9.2
Wisconsin                   9.2
Wyoming      9.4
Indiana       9.5
Utah            9.5
Colorado     9.7
Nevada       9.9
Pennsylvania   10
Virginia        10
Massachusetts   10.1
Nebraska      10.2
Hawaii         10.3
Ohio            10.3
Missouri       10.30%
Kansas        10.4
North Dakota   10.6
Idaho          10.8
Rhode Island   11.3
Georgia       11.5
Michigan      11.5
Oregon        11.7
Washington   11.8
South Dakota   12.1
Maine          12.5
Florida         12.6
Illinois          12.7
California          13.1
Arizona          13.5
Oklahoma                   13.5
South Carolina   13.5
New York     14.2
Kentucky      14.3
Montana      14.3
Tennessee   14.4
Alabama      14.7
North Carolina   15
Texas          16.3
DC               16.9
West Virginia   17.1
Louisiana     17.2
Mississippi   17.2
New Mexico   18
Arkansas                   18.8


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104529.html
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2004, 05:44:31 AM »

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

The blue states that make more money and give more money to the government than they take also pay their employees more.  11/20 Blue states have a minimum wage higher than the national average.  9/31 Blue states have a minimum wage lower than the national average or no minimum wage laws at all.

The Per Capitia Income in the Blue states is much higher.  Oregon has the lowest per capita income of the blue states at #32

District of Columbia   47,305
Connecticut   43,292
New Jersey   40,002
Massachusetts   39,408
Maryland        37,424
New York       36,296
New Hampshire   34,703
Colorado         34,510
Minnesota   34,039
Virginia         33,651
California       33,403
Delaware    33,321
Washington   33,264
Alaska         33,254
Illinois         33,205
Wyoming         32,235
Rhode Island   31,937
Pennsylvania   31,706
Nevada           31,487
Michigan         31,196
Wisconsin                   30,723
Hawaii          30,589
Vermont      30,534
Nebraska      30,331
Florida          29,972
Ohio            29,953
Kansas         29,545
Georgia         29,259
Missouri        29,094
Texas            29,076
Maine          28,935
Oregon           28,806
Indiana           28,797
Tennessee   28,565
North Dakota   28,521
Iowa           28,398
North Carolina   28,301
South Dakota   28,299
Arizona          26,931
Oklahoma                   26,567
Kentucky     26,352
Alabama       26,276
South Carolina   26,138
Louisiana    26,038
Montana       25,775
Idaho          25,583
New Mexico   25,502
Utah            25,230
West Virginia   24,672
Arkansas                   24,296
Mississippi   23,343

I mean as long as we aren't going to be a compassionate country shouldn't the blue states take care of our own interests.  Obviously the red states don't care about our opinions so screw 'em.  They think that were liberal elitists it is time we started acting that way.  Get rid of all government programs w/out those taxes the blue states can afford to do create our own social safety net, our own medical care system.  If the democratic party is to die that we shall and become neo-feralists and the red states can have all the guns they want, and put up the the 10 commadements in schools, hell judges can use the bible to sentence criminals, teach creationsm in schools.  Liberals are getting tired of getting constantly rided.  Lets see how well the red states do without the blue.  I'm not saying we seceed no need for that.  I just think that we have to stop the Republican Pork barrel spending of their states.  Step number one end income tax, step to a federal spending cap, and step three shut down ALL Federal government programs besides the military.  The WHOLE kitten kaboddle.  Let states take care of themselves the way a Republic is supposed to work.  Some people on this site hate Lincoln, maybe the Liberals have been too deluded to think that the union would work.  What sort of economy would the south have today if they were an independent country.  Realistically
Logged
DanielX
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,126
United States


Political Matrix
E: 2.45, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2004, 06:09:10 AM »

Teacher salaries have more to do with local cost of living than anything else. A teacher in California could not live off the money a teacher earns in Kansas, and the teacher's salary in California is, by Kansas standards, a fortune.

A big portion of that is the cost of property. Think about how expensive it is in San Francisco... compared to most of Kansas.

As for welfare, a lot of it isl about whose on the Senate Budget committee. The ranking Republican and Democrat in the 2001-2003 session , for instance, came from Alaska and West Virginia, respectively; coincidence that those two states received the most pork barrel per capita? Not likely! It's a bipartisan pigging effort.
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2004, 01:13:15 PM »

I'm suprised no libertarians have comented.  I'm here ready to talk about shrinking the federal government to a non-existant size.  Shut off the parasitic red states.  They don't support our causes why should we support theirs.  We will let the invisible hand of capitalism do its magic work.  If oklahoma can put together an economy that works without federal support bully for them.  The blue states are ready to compete in a fair fight.  Remember not to call democrats out of main stream though.  We don't like that.  Kerry got the second most votes for president for all time.
Logged
J. J.
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,892
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2004, 01:40:18 PM »

  Kerry got the second most votes for president for all time.

He's also run at a time with the biggest electorate in the history of the US, and he was beated by the guy with the ]most votes for any president of all time.
Logged
khirkhib
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 967


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2004, 01:52:09 PM »

beated?
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.064 seconds with 13 queries.