Another linguistic question

[lidaker]

Do you eat sardines in America? If so, what do you call the metal object they come in?

[lidaker]

Not a "can"?

[lidaker]

I like 'em too.  And kippers.  And tuna.  But not anchovies.

Sardines and anchovies and kippers come in a tin.

tuna, like salmon, often comes in a can.

but good tuna comes fresh and cut into a big steak.


Always sit next to a vegetarian at a dinner party.  You'll get two servings!

Thanks!

[lidaker]

This might sound a little weird.

But can you open a tin "towards" the sea? Or "in front of" the sea? Not "against" the sea, I'm sure. I'm looking for the preposition corresponding to the direction in which someone opens a tin, if he/she does it in the direction of the sea.

Do you "open" a tin, btw?

I'm translating a poem, you see. Thanks.

[lidaker]

This might sound a little weird.

But can you open a tin "towards" the sea? Or "in front of" the sea? Not "against" the sea, I'm sure. I'm looking for the preposition corresponding to the direction in which someone opens a tin, if he/she does it in the direction of the sea.

Do you "open" a tin, btw?

I'm translating a poem, you see. Thanks.

Huh? What? "facing" the sea, maybe? Or do you mean emptying a tin  into the sea?

What you do with the tin is irrelevant. It's the preposition. Not a verb. The direction. Perhaps it's as simple as "in the direction" of the sea. You do something in the direction of the sea. You open a tin in the direction of the sea (at least in this poem). You watch the sunset standing in the direction of the sea. Etc. Not "towards"?

[lidaker]

This might sound a little weird.

But can you open a tin "towards" the sea? Or "in front of" the sea? Not "against" the sea, I'm sure. I'm looking for the preposition corresponding to the direction in which someone opens a tin, if he/she does it in the direction of the sea.

Do you "open" a tin, btw?

I'm translating a poem, you see. Thanks.

Huh? What? "facing" the sea, maybe? Or do you mean emptying a tin  into the sea?

What you do with the can is irrelevant. It's the preposition. Not a verb. The direction. Perhaps it's as simple as "in the direction" of the sea. You do something in the direction of the sea. You open a tin in the direction of the sea (at least in this poem). You watch the sunset standing in the direction of the sea. Etc. Not "towards"?

When trying to translate a word, its context is never irrelevant.
You're at the beach, watching the sunset. You're watching the sun set into the Pacific (or whatever) ocean.

Yeah, but what's the word describing the position in which you stand when you watch the sun set into the ocean? Do you stand towards the ocean or in the direction of the ocean or somthing else?

Also, if you are a smoker and decide to start smoking Marlboro instead of Camel, what do you do? "Change brands"?

Damn, my English is not good.

[lidaker]

You would stand facing the ocean.


Yes, you would be changing brands.

Thanks, but someone wants something to be done in the direction of something, i.e. the sardine wants the tin to be opened in the direction of the ocean. Can you say "The sardine wants the tin to be opened in the direction of the ocean" or should it be "The sardine wants the tin to be opened towards the ocean" or is both options bad English?

Thank you for your patience.

[lidaker]

if you need an emily post style rhyming scheme, you can rhyme can with brands.  (use can instead of tin in that case, take some artistic liberty, and the skew-rhyme won't offend the anglophone sense)

change a brand
open a can
sardine's in hand
Sam, I am.

like that. 

yeah, facing the sea implies that you face the sea while you open the tin (usually a little metal ring soldered, or affixed with a brad, serves as the opening mechanism).

but if you want to make sure the reader has the sense that the sardine tin, and not necessarily the opener, faces the sea, you can say, "...longing for the open ocean of his childhood, as we all do, the sardine wills the man to open the tin toward the sea..."

or something like that.

Suddenly, I'm dying for sardines. But all I have are potatoes and sausage.

Anyway, it's the sardine that wants the tin to be opened. So I guess it should be toward the sea. DAMN! Is it "sea" or "ocean"? What's the difference? Is "sea" a more poetic word?

Is this perfect English? (Skärholmen is a subway station in Stockholm.)


The sardine in the subway

I don't want to wash myself with that soap.
I don't want to brush my teeth with that toothbrush.
I don't want to lie in that sofa bed.
I feel no need for that toilet paper.
I'm not interested in that insurance.
I won't change into another cigarette brand.
I don't feel like watching that movie.
I refuse to get of at Skärholmen.

The sardine wants the tin to be opened toward the ocean.

[lidaker]

if you need an emily post style rhyming scheme, you can rhyme can with brands.  (use can instead of tin in that case, take some artistic liberty, and the skew-rhyme won't offend the anglophone sense)

change a brand
open a can
sardine's in hand
Sam, I am.

like that. 

yeah, facing the sea implies that you face the sea while you open the tin (usually a little metal ring soldered, or affixed with a brad, serves as the opening mechanism).

but if you want to make sure the reader has the sense that the sardine tin, and not necessarily the opener, faces the sea, you can say, "...longing for the open ocean of his childhood, as we all do, the sardine wills the man to open the tin toward the sea..."

or something like that.

Suddenly, I'm dying for sardines. But all I have are potatoes and sausage.

Anyway, it's the sardine that wants the tin to be opened. So I guess it should be toward the sea. DAMN! Is it "sea" or "ocean"? What's the difference? Is "sea" a more poetic word?

Is this perfect English? (Skärholmen is a subway station in Stockholm.)


The sardine in the subway

I don't want to wash myself with that soap.
I don't want to brush my teeth with that toothbrush.
I don't want to lie in that sofa bed.
I feel no need for that toilet paper.
I'm not interested in that insurance.
I won't change into another cigarette brand.
I don't feel like watching that movie.
I refuse to get of at Skärholmen.

The sardine wants the tin to be opened toward the ocean.

sea alliterates nicely with sardine, just as subway does.  change it to sea.  also, you mean "get off" not "get of"

I'm sure a more right-hemisphere oriented poster could help you, I'm a bit of a left-hemisphere geek myself, what with the interest in mathematics and such.  Maybe the Emperor will chime in.

Thanks angus

[lidaker]

The sardine in the subway

I don't want to wash myself with that soap.
I don't want to brush my teeth with that toothbrush.
I don't want to lie in that sofa bed.
I feel no need for that toilet paper.
I'm not interested in that insurance.
I won't change into another cigarette brand.
I don't feel like watching that movie.
I refuse to get of at Skärholmen.

The sardine wants the tin to be opened toward the ocean.

Lets see, some constructive criticism:

Someone is usually "on" the subway, not "in" the subway.  Although you could go that way if you wanted, it just sounds funny to me.

In the first 5 lines, the word "that" seems unnecessary.  It would flow better in my opinion if you simply said "I don't want to wash myself with soap."

I would use "to" instead of "into" in the cigarette line.

You mean off, not of, in the penultimate line

Finally, the last line with the sardine doesn't sound right.  I'll have to think on it for a bit, but it's not good English.

That's some great criticism. Thanks.

I might have to explain the context for you to understand the last line better.

First, when it comes to the "thats" it's absolutely necessary that they're there. Soap, sofa bed, toilet paper, all are certain brands. That brand of soap etc.

The guy who calls himself the sardine sits on the subway and sees all these advertisments around him. This might be hard to understand for an American, but in Sweden we didn't have advertisments inside the subway trains until the 70's or something. So some people reacted the way this person does, they felt they were like the sardine in the tin. Kind of like Michael Douglas in that movie Falling Down. This commercialization of public space restricts his freedom, he feels.

That's why he/the sardine wants the tin to be opened in this particular direction, so he can feel the presence of his true, free origin again - the open sea. It's also a very ironic line but that's another aspect.

[lidaker]

The sardine in the subway

I don't want to wash myself with that soap.
I don't want to brush my teeth with that toothbrush.
I don't want to lie in that sofa bed.
I feel no need for that toilet paper.
I'm not interested in that insurance.
I won't change into another cigarette brand.
I don't feel like watching that movie.
I refuse to get of at Skärholmen.

The sardine wants the tin to be opened toward the ocean.

Critique from a Critic

• The that's aren't neccessary unless you want to emphasize a particular soap, toothbrush, etc., in which case they are needed,
  
• The reflexive myself isn't necessary either, but removing it would make the first line considerably shorter than its neighbors in the poem, so I'd leave it in.
  
• In the second line, I think it would scan better if you used brush instead of toothbrush.  Both are valid, but its a long line, and the impression that I think you want the poem to convey would be improved were it similar in length to the other lines.
  
• I presume you're trying to preserve a change in form that occurs in the fourth line of the original.  Otherwise "I don't want that toilet paper." or "I don't need that toilet paper" would be more natural sounding to me, but since poetry doesn't always try for a prose effect, I can't say whether it would be an improvement to use another form such as the ones I suggested above.
• Maybe I've read too many Lucky Strikes ads in my day, but I think using switch instead of change seems better to me, altho both are correct.
  
• You probably need to use, as KEmperor already pointed out, the preposition to instead of into in the cigarette line unless you are implying that someone wants the sardine to become a cigarette brand instead of merely using it..
  
• Finally, the last line would be better if you use the present infinitive to open or the present progressive infinitive to be opening instead of the past progressive infinitive to be opened.  Switching from present to past like that is usually wrong.
  

Wonderful!

Re: "toothbrush": it should be toothpaste, I see now. Only "paste", then?

The poem, re-translated:


The sardine on the subway

I don't want to wash with that soap.
I don't want to brush with that paste.
I don't want to lie in that sofa bed.
I feel no need for that toilet paper.
I'm not interested in that insurance.
I won't switch to another cigarette brand.
I don't feel like watching that movie.
I refuse to get off at Skärholmen.

The sardine wants the tin to be opened toward the sea.

- - -

The last line is very difficult. If you say "to open" or "to be opening" I'm given the impression that the tin opens up by itself. Am I wrong? The Swedish word implies that there's a person involved, someone that opens that tin, even if he/she is not mentioned.

[lidaker]

I wouldn't get rid of all mention of teeth in the second line as without it, it doesn't make it clear what is being brushed.  It could be teeth with toothpaste, a car with paste wax,  or a piece of paper with adhesive paste.  Indeed, without context, I'd interpret it as the last of the three.

True, thanks.

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The original word could mean both, but in this context I think it should be translated as lie in.

[lidaker]

It seems to me that the final line could read simply, "The sardine wants the tin opened toward the sea," or, "The sardine wants the tin opened to the sea." While perhaps not gramatically correct, in the poetic sense the "to be" is understood, IMHO.

Seems like a smooth solution. Removes the clumsiness of the line while keeping the originial meaning. Great! I think I'll choose the second option - it sounds better.

[lidaker]

NEW VERSION

The sardine on the subway

I don't want to wash myself with that soap.
I don't want to brush my teeth with that toothpaste.
I don't want to lie in that sofa bed.
I feel no need for that toilet paper.
I'm not interested in that insurance.
I won't switch to another cigarette brand.
I don't feel like watching that movie.
I refuse to get off at Skärholmen.

The sardine wants the tin opened to the sea.

By Werner Aspenström, from In the meantime (1972)

- - -

Is it OK? Is "wash myself" acceptable or should it be only "wash"?

- - -

SCANDINAVIAN VERSION (to Jens)

Sardinen på tunnelbanan

Jag vill inte tvätta mig med den där tvålen.
Jag vill inte borsta mig med den där tandkrämen.
Jag vill inte ligga i den där bäddsoffan.
Jag känner inget behov av det där toilettpapperet.
Jag är inte intresserad av den där försäkringen.
Jag tänker inte övergå till ett annat cigarrettmärke.
Jag har ingen lust att se den där filmen.
Jag vägrar stiga av vid Skärholmen.

Sardinen vill att burken öppnas emot havet.

Av Werner Aspenström, ur Under tiden (1972)

[lidaker]

They come in a tin, damn it! Cans require an opener whereas a tin has that nifty little key to open those stinky little fish right up after you cut yourself first!

lidaker,

Note how NewFederalist uses "cut yourself" 

see the emphasis?!

This is exactly why you should say "wash myself"


Spanish and French have these 'reflexive verbs' such as irse and masturbarse, for example.  In english, we have to construct them from scratch, just like in all the Germanic languages.  So, yeah, go for it, as in:  Wash yourself, you dirty bastard!  (compare this to:  "Wash, you dirty bastard!"  See the difference?!)

"lavarte, cabron, lavarte!"
    --Comandante Che Guevara

Yep. We construct them from scratch in Sweden too.

wash oneself = tvätta sig
better oneself = förbättra sig
etc.

Long live the Interatlantic Reflexive Verbs from Scratch Alliance!

[lidaker]

I asked an American who also knows Swedish about this, and he wanted the last line to read like this:

"The sardine wants the tin opened onto the sea."

Case closed?