PLEASE SAY IT AIN'T SO.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't believe the Senate itself voted on the ConCon, so I don't think you could classify BK's actions as Senate business. Which is very, very regrettable. I hope he has a suitable explanation.

First one to be booted due to innactivity since DWTL in May 2009.

Which is how I ended up taking office and starting my legislative legacy here in Atlasia. A moment to be remembered forever.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The law is the law.

As much as it pains me to agree, you're correct. Were I in a position to rule over something like this I would say BK is no longer a Senator, even if I would really really really want him to be.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Hmm.. An interesting point about when it's actually deemed vacant. You posting before the PPT deeming the seat officially vacant would possibly invalidate that declaration.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't see why the courts would even need to examine this, as it seems clear cut to me. Bacon King went for 3 straight weeks without posting, and by law, he is no longer a Senator, regardless of what the PPT does.

As much as I think Bacon King should stay in the Senate, we'd be setting a bad precedent by breaking the law in order to keep him in there. If he wants to stay in, he can always run in the special election.

That would I think be a fair compromise. Let the vacancy stand and then have BK run in the special. Its not like he would have a problem winning the special as a JCPer.

Sounds reasonable.

It's not reasonable at all and I would caution against falling for that trap. Coming off the heels of three weeks of inactivity wouldn't make him an attractive choice for people to vote for. The right would put up a moderate and/or likable figure and then demolish him with this as an issue.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I find the argument that 21 days means calendar days, and not 21 days to the minute, to be both compelling and reasonable.

BK, take this to court.

It's a reasonable question. There are other cases on statute (then again, this is a Senate rule, not federal law) where, if something is actually to be specified by time, it's listed in hours. (Elections are done this way, for example.) The lack of specificity on the time it takes for someone to be deemed inactive could easily be interpreted either way.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't see why the courts would even need to examine this, as it seems clear cut to me. Bacon King went for 3 straight weeks without posting, and by law, he is no longer a Senator, regardless of what the PPT does.

As much as I think Bacon King should stay in the Senate, we'd be setting a bad precedent by breaking the law in order to keep him in there. If he wants to stay in, he can always run in the special election.

That would I think be a fair compromise. Let the vacancy stand and then have BK run in the special. Its not like he would have a problem winning the special as a JCPer.

Sounds reasonable.

It's not reasonable at all and I would caution against falling for that trap. Coming off the heels of three weeks of inactivity wouldn't make him an attractive choice for people to vote for. The right would put up a moderate and/or likable figure and then demolish him with this as an issue.

That's funny, Marokai.  I was under the impression that you were a really big fan of democracy.

How is what you said at all relevant to what I just said?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Ogis, this isnt' a crusade or some mission. This is a delicate situation that requires professionalism and maturity to be fixed. I would ask to avoid any type of personal attacks or stuff in this matter.

That's funny, Yankee. I was under the impression that you were a really big fan of shellfish.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't see that definition as particularly binding, Wormy. As Fritz and BK both pointed out, when we legislate specific times instead of calender days it's usually done in terms of hours. So long as those differences exist on the books, it's perfectly out for interpretation on whether or not something is calender days vs. specific time.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Well, I don't think "hour" really means "hour."  I think you need to say "3600 seconds."

False equivalency. "Day" can often mean "24 hours" specifically or "calender day" as the way its used has evolved over the generations. "Hour" has no such dueling definitions because it is always used specifically.

[Marokai Backbeat]

"The hour of our triumph."

"An hour's work"

"The hour of reckoning"

"Hours and hours"

Irrelevant. Those are specific phrases used in entirely different contexts. It doesn't compare.

[Marokai Backbeat]

"The hour of our triumph."

"An hour's work"

"The hour of reckoning"

"Hours and hours"

What?

Those are figures of speech and not anything that would ever appear in a legal text.

Exactly my point.

If the point was that you don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about and you're sticking around just to be a thorn in everyone's side for no reason, then point made.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Personally, I consider a day 24 hours. It's the most technical and accurate way of operating. Going by hours, Bacon King was inactive for 3 weeks straight, which I think would make a very compelling case in the court. Even Marokai stated earlier that Bacon King is no longer a Senator.

I'm certainly completely confused at the moment, for sure. If I had to make a decision, I suppose right now I'd defer to BK's explanation but then demand a change in the Senate rules to make it more specific.

I'm really only being argumentative for Wormy's sake.

[Marokai Backbeat]

You would be very hard pressed to find any evidence of me being biased when I'm looking at legal issues, Wormy.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Show me one example where you took a position not beneficial to your party.

Atlasia v. Sewer Socialist: I got irritated with Sewer Socialist and through the maximum (or near-max) contempt of court punishment on him even though he votes for left-wing candidates and is a member of my party.

Jbrase v. Atlasia: I started out critical of Jbrase's case and in defense of HAEV, which I voted for as a Senator, supported as a citizen, and encouraged the person who founded the board, Antonio, my friend. I then later agreed with Sam Spade after debate in private that it was unconstitutional and then agreed to reinstate the banned members HAEV threw out.

There was also a case concerning the Pacific vs. the Southeast that Ebowed was heading, but I was just about to rule against him with Sam Spade (against Opebo's wishes) that he had no grounds for a case, despite it being my region, despite Ebowed being a friend.

[Marokai Backbeat]

That took you 10 minutes to find.  Finding an irritating individual irritating or acting like a hack and then acting less like a hack to avoid embarrassment after the majority opinion has already been written does not make you not a hack.

We're talking about legal matters, not me running around and acting like a jerk to someone in my own party for no reason. That's not my style and if that's what you expected, sorry.

I decide against my own party and my own benefit when the facts are clear on legal matters. Your entire presence in this thread (and in Atlasia overall) is to be a disturbance. End of story.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The facts are clear.  1 day = 24 hours.  End of story.  If the law meant "day" as something other than a unit of time, then it would have said something different (i.e. "calendar day").  Otherwise when a unit of time is referred to in a law, it is generally assumed to refer to that unit of time, and not to some colloquialism.

So let me explain to you why you are wrong.

Article I, Section 3, Clause 1 of the Constitution (both old and new) allows the Senate to form its own rules and regulations and to expel a member by a two-thirds vote.

The Senate does so in the Senate Rules, Regulations, and Procedures (OSPR), which is not a law, but rather an internal Senate document.

From a constitutional standpoint, you are wrong because Article 11, Clause 1 of the OSPR can only be enforced in accordance with the Constitution. So, when Article 11, Clause 1 becomes "active," the Senate must still vote to vacate a senator's seat by a two-thirds vote. The OSPR is simply a guideline, not a rule that can trump the Constitution. When this clause is broken (and I am aware that this means DWTL was improperly removed), the Senate should then be informed and move into a vote on removing the senator in question. That process should actually be spelled out more clearly by the Senate to avoid confusion.

From an internal Senate point of view, you are wrong because the OSPR in Article I, Section 1 asserts that the purpose of these rules "is to provide the Senate with detailed, yet flexible rules for parliamentary procedure." Article 11, Clause 1 of the OSPR says the seat will be vacated after a period of absence or neglect of "not less than 21 days." The wording of that clause, together with the professed purpose of flexibility in Article I means that the Senate and PPT have flexibility in enforcing their own guidelines. Again, the OSPR is not law, as they are not subject to presidential veto. If the Senate decides to shirk its own guidelines, that is up to them.

Why are you a JCP hack, Purple State?

[Marokai Backbeat]

So your party's own ethics rules applies to other parties but not to your own.  That's nice.  When a member of your party breaks both the letter and the spirit of the rule, then it's "flexible."  When a member of right-wing party breaks those same ethics rules, then they have to be implemented immediately.

Whatevs.  You guys are insufferable.

It's unclear and I fully support the Senate clarifying it's rules. But the rule itself is doubly unclear when reinforced by the fact that it is not at all a law. No one thought of it at the time with DWDL because he basically wasn't around at all and that was the starting point of his near disappearance from Atlasia. BK overlooked Senate business and didn't do anything for his own reasons, but he's still around and caught it just at the end, shining light on the fine print. It's regrettable that we f'ed up in the past, but that's how it is.

If the Senate clarifies it's rules, we won't have to deal with this problem ever again. Simple as that.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I do not understand why this thread is still here. At all.