MA: Mideast Labor Code Statute Revision (Statute)
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  MA: Mideast Labor Code Statute Revision (Statute)
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Author Topic: MA: Mideast Labor Code Statute Revision (Statute)  (Read 8810 times)
Junkie
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« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2010, 04:02:29 PM »

Our economy is suffering due to lack of consumer consumption. Millions of people would have their consumer consumption abilities raised by this bill either directly or indirectly (i.e. companies that already pay a bit over $8.50/hr, but would raise wages to avoid labor competition with minimum wage jobs).

Yep, nothing helps economic production like weakening the purchasing power of millions of people. Look at countries like Guatemala. A real middle class paradise thanks to a near nonexistent minimum wage.

Lord, you guys desperately need a progressive in the Assembly. Tongue

While I understand your point, that only comes into effect if the Feds do away with their min. wage. 
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California8429
A-Bob
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« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2010, 05:24:25 PM »

Voting is closed, the amendment has passed.

Aye-4
Nay-0
Abstain-0

Not Voting- True Conservative
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California8429
A-Bob
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« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2010, 05:29:59 PM »

Our economy is suffering due to lack of consumer consumption. Millions of people would have their consumer consumption abilities raised by this bill either directly or indirectly (i.e. companies that already pay a bit over $8.50/hr, but would raise wages to avoid labor competition with minimum wage jobs).

Yep, nothing helps economic production like weakening the purchasing power of millions of people. Look at countries like Guatemala. A real middle class paradise thanks to a near nonexistent minimum wage.

Lord, you guys desperately need a progressive in the Assembly. Tongue

How do you explain the best economic states with the lowest minimum wages and the worst states with the highest wages then? Not to mention this protects small business by allowing start-ups to pay low wages in order to stay afloat, I don't see how competition is promoted when every small business and new business is crushed immediately by regulation like this, Cap-and-Tax, and other programs that only large corporations are able to afford which drives out their competitors.
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Badger
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« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2010, 12:23:49 PM »
« Edited: December 08, 2010, 12:27:20 PM by Badger »

Our economy is suffering due to lack of consumer consumption. Millions of people would have their consumer consumption abilities raised by this bill either directly or indirectly (i.e. companies that already pay a bit over $8.50/hr, but would raise wages to avoid labor competition with minimum wage jobs).

Yep, nothing helps economic production like weakening the purchasing power of millions of people. Look at countries like Guatemala. A real middle class paradise thanks to a near nonexistent minimum wage.

Lord, you guys desperately need a progressive in the Assembly. Tongue

How do you explain the best economic states with the lowest minimum wages and the worst states with the highest wages then? Not to mention this protects small business by allowing start-ups to pay low wages in order to stay afloat, I don't see how competition is promoted when every small business and new business is crushed immediately by regulation like this, Cap-and-Tax, and other programs that only large corporations are able to afford which drives out their competitors.


WTF are you talking about? Seriously. MS? Alabama? Arkansas? Cite from reputable source, please.

As for the rest of the post, small businesses don't "stay afloat" when consumers don't have sufficient purchasing power. That's exactly what's keeping the national economy in the doldrums now.

Please don't harp on "small businesses". Cutting the minimum wage is a direct boon to the Wal-Marts, McDonalds, and other wage slave mega-corporations.

BTW: I assume if such a cut goes through you'll be pushing to strongly increase funding for food stamps, housing subsidies, child care assistance, medicaid, etc? When people continue to work full time but can't earn enough to feed or house themselves--God forbid they have children too--then other resources are necessary to avoid hunger and homelessness because the "work hard" ethos of the American dream is meaningless.

Oh, and right wingers better drop opposition to abortion too. A woman gets pregnant and can barely afford to feed and house herself and one child at her minimum wage job already, and now she gets a pay cut? What do you think the tragic outcome there is more likely to be? Or maybe the "compassionate" conservatives in this chamber will understand the actual human implications of their policies and not slash wages to the working poor as a highly questionable means of cutting unemployment?
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tpfkaw
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« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2010, 12:52:31 PM »



Green states have minimum wages higher than federal, other colors don't.



As you can see, not one of the above-national states are in the highest quintile.  57% are in the lowest two quintiles.

Although I'm sure that's just a conspiracy to benefit the "wage-slave mega-corporations," like Wal-Mart, which doesn't have a single minimum wage worker on its payroll.  (Congress generally keeps the minimum wage below market levels so that its marginal impact is not easily noticed).

If one's desire were for "economic justice," one would wish to increase food stamp etc. funding if the minimum wage were raised, as that would mean significantly more poors will find themselves out of a job.  (Do you really think Wal-Mart finds its "greeters" so crucial that it wouldn't fire the lot of them if the government mandated they be paid, say, $12 an hour?)
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« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2010, 02:13:46 PM »

Also Badger, what about jobs that are part time, or aren't meant to be careers, such as jobs at McDonald's? Should everyone there get minimum wage for doing some very easy tasks? Maybe if someone pays me five bucks to dig him a hole, and it takes over on hour, should I sue because I should be collecting minimum wage? I'm not against minimum wage, however, I don't think it's applicable to every scenario.
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California8429
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« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2010, 05:28:34 PM »

Our economy is suffering due to lack of consumer consumption. Millions of people would have their consumer consumption abilities raised by this bill either directly or indirectly (i.e. companies that already pay a bit over $8.50/hr, but would raise wages to avoid labor competition with minimum wage jobs).

Yep, nothing helps economic production like weakening the purchasing power of millions of people. Look at countries like Guatemala. A real middle class paradise thanks to a near nonexistent minimum wage.

Lord, you guys desperately need a progressive in the Assembly. Tongue

How do you explain the best economic states with the lowest minimum wages and the worst states with the highest wages then? Not to mention this protects small business by allowing start-ups to pay low wages in order to stay afloat, I don't see how competition is promoted when every small business and new business is crushed immediately by regulation like this, Cap-and-Tax, and other programs that only large corporations are able to afford which drives out their competitors.


WTF are you talking about? Seriously. MS? Alabama? Arkansas? Cite from reputable source, please.

As for the rest of the post, small businesses don't "stay afloat" when consumers don't have sufficient purchasing power. That's exactly what's keeping the national economy in the doldrums now.

Please don't harp on "small businesses". Cutting the minimum wage is a direct boon to the Wal-Marts, McDonalds, and other wage slave mega-corporations.

BTW: I assume if such a cut goes through you'll be pushing to strongly increase funding for food stamps, housing subsidies, child care assistance, medicaid, etc? When people continue to work full time but can't earn enough to feed or house themselves--God forbid they have children too--then other resources are necessary to avoid hunger and homelessness because the "work hard" ethos of the American dream is meaningless.

Oh, and right wingers better drop opposition to abortion too. A woman gets pregnant and can barely afford to feed and house herself and one child at her minimum wage job already, and now she gets a pay cut? What do you think the tragic outcome there is more likely to be? Or maybe the "compassionate" conservatives in this chamber will understand the actual human implications of their policies and not slash wages to the working poor as a highly questionable means of cutting unemployment?

Texas, Tennessee, North Carolina, Florida. There is a reason why business, jobs, and people are migrating there.

http://www.chiefexecutive.net/ME2/Audiences/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications::Article&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=59FD13C5177B40B0B2D3EBA9E4384572&AudID=F242408EE36A4B18AABCEB1289960A07

And as you can see from the maps, AR and LA even grew their GDPs.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2010, 05:45:37 PM »

Badger, I think I can speak for the entire Assembly when I say we value your opinion as both a private citizen and GM, and it's great you're getting involved in the Assembly, as few others do. I wish you weren't as full of anger, though, on this, and I hope this body can continue to peacefully work with you. We're not here to provoke you, we're here to help the people of the Mideast region.

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My understanding is that the $6.50 + inflation will only be set in place if the federal law is abolished (which I don't see happening) since we can't override the federal bill. I honestly agree with you, and my sincere problem with this bill right now is that the minimum wage is too low. If I am wrong and this number would go immediately into effect, I will ask the Assembly for a higher number, though they can override me. We need to create jobs, but we also have to make sure the people who currently have jobs stay afloat.

You've come out so strongly against this though, that I'm almost worried to let any legislation pass. I think it's probably a safe bet that your GM report for the region, whenever there even is one, will not be good since you personally don't like some of the bills coming out of the Assembly.
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« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2010, 07:50:04 PM »
« Edited: December 08, 2010, 07:53:44 PM by McMillan 2012 »

As a member of the Right Wing, I will not stop opposition to abortion. First off, if the woman only has minimum wage, she shoudl think about what she's doing if she can't afford to make mistakes. Secondly, it seems the Left is obsessed mostly with reaction instead of prevention, such as, if a woman gets pregnant, the Left champions abortion instead of asking why she got pregnant, and thinking about solutions to teen pregnancy and/or people being pregnant that can't afford it. There are solutions to teen pregnancy outside of abortion and condom use.
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California8429
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« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2010, 07:59:48 PM »

And it seems you failed to recognize our recent Anti-Abortion bill we just passed that was praised by liberals as well as conservatives.
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Junkie
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« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2010, 09:08:01 AM »

In response to your concerns Badger, there are few things in defense of this Statute I would like you to consider:

1.) When originally drafted, this statute raised the minimum wage in the Mideast region that was originally on the books and eliminated the requirement that a worker get through 500 hours before getting to a higher min. wage.  I believe that we both agree on the benefits of that.

2.) When you pointed out that there is a Federal min. wage (which I will again admit I stupidly missed your post earlier) the statute was modified to place the Mideast region in line with the Federal government.  You were right and we fixed the statute.

3.) It was pointed out (I think by Inks, but I could be wrong) that the new statute created an issue where, if the Federal statute were repealed, the Mideast would then have no min. wage.  For that reason, another amendment was installed to establish a min. wage, in case, no matter how slim the possibility, that there existed a min. wage for Mideast workers.


4.) This amendment places the min. wage higher than originally existed in the Mideast and also adjusts it for inflation, ensuring that there will be increases in the min. wage (which by the way is a huge change over Wisconsin among others that does not increase min. wage to account for inflation)

5.)  While you might not like the amount, it is an attempt to come up with a number that is fari to workers (taking into account inflation) and fair to businesses (since if the Fed. min. wage goes away, we have no idea what it will be in other states).

All of these issues are why I supported it.  I hope you can see the benefits of this statute and can consider that quite frankly, it is not at all "right wing."  Any other questions, I am more than willing to answer and work on addressing concerns.
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Badger
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« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2010, 04:40:18 PM »
« Edited: December 10, 2010, 04:44:29 PM by Badger »

Where to begin?

Easiest first: @ Junkie-- A voice of reason as always. Wink I don't have that much problem with the statute as passed for the very reasons you stated. I understand it only goes into effect if the federal minimum wage is repealed, and that's not about to happen. My invective is towards the concept of battling sluggish economic growth and high unemployment by cutting wages for the working poor, which I find not only morally reprehensible, but economically damaging in the long run.

@ tmthforu: Don't worry about my analysis as GM. First off few of the bills passed recently have much economic impact (e.g. gun control, DUI reform, etc.). Secondly, I'll grade any bill fairly re: its likely economic impact whether I like it or not. Yes, a reduction in the minimum wage may result in a small, short term reduction in unemployment, but will do nothing to produce consumer spending and resulting GDP growth. Any long term damage from weakened consumer purchasing power probably won't be felt until you're all long out of office. Tongue Regardless, I definitely wear different hats for my role as GM vs. outraged Mideast citizen. Grin

@ Wormy: First, we're not talking about paying Wal-Mart greeters "$12/hour". We're talking about a minimum wage of only $8.50/hr. Huge difference.

Second, the maps you present show no discernable pattern to support your argument. I found the minimum wage chart you used on Wikipedia and noticed the distinctions between the "other colors", most predominantly being blue which designates a state with minimum wage laws matching the feds. Look at lower wage states like TN, SC, MO & MN (Minnesota? Huh I wouldn't have expected that); they suffered poor to $hity growth, while higher minimum wage states like VT, CO, DC and WA did relatively well. Washington has the highest minimum wage in the county, but still had less economic decline than the vast majority of states.

For that matter, look at the article A-Bob posted. The same lack of relation is present (see below). It appears one needs to look deeper among state differences than mere minimum wage. Does one think that Ohio is in the lowest quintile of growth in part because its state minimum wage is 5 cents an hour more than the federal rate? Roll Eyes The bottom line is this fails to show any meaningful relation between lower minimum wages and economic growth:

@ A-Bob: The article you linked lists low minimum wage states TN and SC as among the top 10 best states for business, but also lists higher minimum wage states CO and NV among the top 10 as well. The greatest improvement in business friendly rankings was Washington, the highest minimum wage state in the country. Among the top 5 losers in ranking were low minimum wage AL and MS. Yes there are states listed the other way, but the point here is no relationship is shown between lower minimum wage and economic growth.

Second, I hardly failed to recognize passage of the recent abortion reduction act. Quite the contrary I was glad to see it pass. What I think the right wing of the Assembly (i.e. everyone but Junkie Tongue) fails to recognize is that abortions are undertaken by women who are desperate, and cutting the ability of the working poor to earn even a barely livable wage only encourages the very (sad) outcome that conservatives profess to so abhor.

@ Cathcon: First, the minimum wage doesn't apply in every situation. It never has. It basically applies to individuals running an continual employment of a person for an ongoing business venture of the employer. One doesn't need to pay the kid next door minimum wage for mowing your grass.

Secondly, your subsequent post about poor women getting pregnant is pure HP which you should be ashamed to believe. It is exactly this all-too-pervasive attitude that I justifiably directed my invective towards previously. You're apparantly Christian from your user name; could you picture Jesus taking that dismissive an approach to a broke pregnant mother struggling to keep a roof over her family's head?

Here's a reality check: People are going to have sex, and sometimes birth control won't be used or will fail. This applies to everyone equally, both the wealthy and no less <horrors!>  the poor too. An attitude of "well, the bit$h should've kept her legs together if she couldn't afford a kid" is neither realistic or merciful social policy.

BTW: LOVE the disconnect between extolling preventing unwanted pregnancies and one sentence later denigrating birth control. But sadly, that is hardly unknown in this body.

@ everyone: <sigh> My point here is that "compassionate conservative" needs to have as much compassion as conservatism, or else its simply a meaningless slogan to sway swing voters. And sadly I'm seeing it take over here. Yes, lets try reducing abortion by putting women in prison, but heaven forbid we try increasing resources for social services and promote birth control. Let's absolutely try reducing unemployment by cutting wages to the working poor, but perish the thought we actually employ people and improve the business climate by seriously investing in infrastructure, education and job training. It just seems now that our regional assembly has reached an unprecedented level of right wing control with one moderate assemblyman and 4 conservatives, plus a conservative governor, the priorities here just seem similarly backwards, and I'm not the only Mideasterner who has (at least privately) expressed so.

A number of us would like nothing more than to see legislation equally compassionate and conservative. The recent abortion bill is a good example. But there are justifiable concerns that isn't going to last long. So there's the challenge: Prove this belief wrong. Both to me and the rest of the region. Please.

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to head home to the family. I hope you'll all understand if after such a long post (into which I was clearly goaded Grin) finishing my assessment of the regional budget will have to wait until after the weekend. Tongue
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California8429
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« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2010, 05:29:26 PM »

States that make the top 10 with higher min wages than federal, tend to be states with the least red-tape, the least government, and the least regulation. Yes, Colorado has been one of the best, but for the past few years that is starting to drastically change and everyone here sees it with every energy business moving to Utah and Wyoming.

Why are you still attacking us on abortion after you just stated what we did was good, which in fact answered all your pleas to provide more help for the social services and harsh penalties on deadbeat dads (or mothers)?

There's a large difference between no wage type of jobs like the industrial age and minimum wage today. What you're asking for with high minimum wages is for the largest companies to outsource to India and China and for the small companies to die out and for new companies to be discouraged. You can't have no minimum wage and you can't have extremely high wages, especially for low quality work (like Walmart greeters). There has to be a balance to ensure jobs in this region stay and grow while also making sure we can provide the best wages possible while keeping unemployment as low as possible. Unfortunately you can't both have very well paying wages and zero unemployment. And if anything you should very much be pleased that this Assembly raised our minimum wage actually from the originally passage of the bill while still including inflation which is a huge party of the minimum wage.
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Badger
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« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2010, 06:31:31 PM »

States that make the top 10 with higher min wages than federal, tend to be states with the least red-tape, the least government, and the least regulation. Yes, Colorado has been one of the best, but for the past few years that is starting to drastically change and everyone here sees it with every energy business moving to Utah and Wyoming.

Why are you still attacking us on abortion after you just stated what we did was good, which in fact answered all your pleas to provide more help for the social services and harsh penalties on deadbeat dads (or mothers)?

There's a large difference between no wage type of jobs like the industrial age and minimum wage today. What you're asking for with high minimum wages is for the largest companies to outsource to India and China and for the small companies to die out and for new companies to be discouraged. You can't have no minimum wage and you can't have extremely high wages, especially for low quality work (like Walmart greeters). There has to be a balance to ensure jobs in this region stay and grow while also making sure we can provide the best wages possible while keeping unemployment as low as possible. Unfortunately you can't both have very well paying wages and zero unemployment. And if anything you should very much be pleased that this Assembly raised our minimum wage actually from the originally passage of the bill while still including inflation which is a huge party of the minimum wage.


Maybe I wasn't clear. My point was that cutting the minimum wage makes it less likely for a working poor pregnant woman to carry her pregnancy to term and more likely to seek an abortion. I'm not attacking anyone because of the recently passed abortion bill. What I'm discouraged about is that supporting a reduction in the minimum wage is a step back from the underlying philosophy of the recently passed bill---that one of the best ways to stop abortions is to maintain a strong social safety net, of which the minimum wage is an important part.

I don't think many energy companies are leaving Colorado to save a few cents an hour on there very few minimum wage employees (janitors and cafeteria workers), A-Bob. Regarding the rest of your analysis re: optimum business condiitions, as one of the comments about that linked article rightly noted: "they're looking for market ideology, not what executives actually look for, like employee productivity, infrastructure, ability to do business-to-business transactions, or (in the case of retail) consumer base. Then this chart would be reversed".

It's good to know you support the concept of a minimum wage unlike some extremists on this forum, A-Bob. We just may disagree about where it should be set. I agree with you that there are extremes that the minimum wage can be taken in either direction with negative impact on the economy. But consider this graph

As you can see, without the recent raises (in RL) in real dollars the minimum wage is at its lowest level since 1950. So a raise hardly seems out of order.

Now if you'll all excuse me again, my son just removed his diaper and peed on the floor next to me. Tongue And my parents are visiting from out of town in the next 30 minutes. Shocked (Ah, fatherhood...)
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California8429
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« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2010, 06:37:48 PM »

I'm not saying minimum wage conditions are the reason business is leaving Colorado at this point in time, I was stating red-tape, overregulation, and a lot of new taxes are. Hence my stating that while we had a slighter higher minimum wage, our regulations used to be extremely efficient without pointless government in the way. Now that we have new regulation, new taxes, and a high minimum wage, business is even more likely to leave, and it is.
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California8429
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« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2010, 06:49:41 PM »

With no further amendments, I'll bring this to a final vote.
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Badger
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« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2010, 11:27:26 AM »

With no further amendments, I'll bring this to a final vote.

/threadjack Tongue
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California8429
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« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2010, 02:07:30 PM »

Voting is now open on the final version of the please. Voting will last for 48 hours, please vote Aye, Nay, or Abstain.
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California8429
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« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2010, 02:08:15 PM »

Aye
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Junkie
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« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2010, 05:44:08 PM »

aye
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« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2010, 10:18:04 PM »

Aye.
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« Reply #71 on: December 11, 2010, 10:22:12 PM »

@ Badger: Would Jesus toss the child by the wayside because of poverty? No. He woudl have advocated the mother see the pregnancy through. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Jesus valued human life. However, he would understand people's individual situations and seems to have been a very empathetic person. That's why I'm currently working to introduce a second abortion reduction bill that woudl handle such things as abortion. Jesus would have also advocated personal responsibility, in my opinion and not have seen abortion as the first or possibly any solution.
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« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2010, 10:42:03 PM »

Cathcon, don't project your personal views onto a man who lived two millennia ago. It's insulting.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2010, 11:12:01 PM »

AYE
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« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2010, 11:41:28 PM »

Cathcon, don't project your personal views onto a man who lived two millennia ago. It's insulting.

How does Badger get a license to then?
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