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Poll
Question: in the Austrian "conscription referendum" in January 2013 ?
#1
Keep the mandatory 6-month draft and 9 month civil service
 
#2
Abolish the draft & civil service and create a professional army
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 99

Author Topic: How would you vote ...  (Read 26832 times)
Tender Branson
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« on: December 14, 2010, 04:35:19 AM »

There will be a referendum next June about the points mentioned above. The defense ministry is currently working on 5 alternative plans, out of which the most effective "professional army"-plan will be put to a referendum.

As you may know, Germany recently ended their draft, that's why there's a big debate about it here too.

There were only 2 referendums so far in Austria since WW2 (one about the introduction of nuclear energy in the 70s, which was rejected and the joining of the EU in the 90s, which was approved).

You have to know that if the draft is abolished, the Civil Service will also be abolished. The Civil Service is rather useful to organisations like the Red Cross, Caritas and Nursing homes, because Civil Servants are cheap and provide a high standard of rapid emergency care with the Red Cross. It it would be abolished, it would be a big blow to these organisations.

The opinion polls are currently slightly in favor of abolishing the draft.

I´m currently very undecided about how I would vote on it, mostly because a professional army would likely increase spending for the Military and about the negative social impact of abolishing the proven Civil Service.

...

Here's an article about the military and the draft:

Austrian Army aims to sell over 500 tanks



The Austrian army is to put more than 500 tanks up for sale, it has emerged.

Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos announced today (Mon) that he has decided to reduce the federal army’s tank fleet by 578. The minister also said the army will sell 100 armoured howitzers.

Darabos explained his decision as a result of the "changed threats" which face Austria today. The minister explained it was unlikely that Austria – a neutral nation by constitution since 1955 – could be engaged in tank warfare in the foreseeable future.

The defence minister claimed that the amount the army will make from selling the tanks and vehicles was "not that important", adding that his "chief priority is lowering the army’s operating costs by 12 million Euros a year".

The Hungarian government has already shown interest in purchasing some of the tanks, according to reports.

Darabos also announced he wanted to reduce the army’s staff by 1,000 during the coming four years, mostly by not assigning new personnel when employees retire. The defence minister also said he will ask hundreds of the army’s current office workers to leave and start working for the finance ministry or the police.

The Austrian army currently consists of nearly 16,000 full-time solders and 9,200 civilian personnel such as secretaries and chefs.

Speaking about the federal army’s representation in federal capital Vienna, the minister revealed he planned to shut and sell seven barracks across the city. Darabos said: "I imagine we will earn 30 million Euros by selling those facilities."

The defence minister claimed all buildings up for sale soon were "excellently situated", adding that the army’s Viennese departments will soon be located in just one barrack.

These extensive cost-cutting measures follow months of heated debate between coalition partners SPÖ and the People’s Party (ÖVP) over the future of the Austrian army.

The SPÖ had vehemently defended the Austrian conscription system for decades, before Viennese SPÖ Mayor Michael Häupl suggested a referendum should be held over the issue.

Commentators said the statement was nothing but an attempt by Häupl to retain his party’s absolute majority in the city parliament since it came a week before residents of Vienna were set to vote. Around 49 per cent were enough for a majority in seats for the SPÖ in the Viennese election in 2005. The Social Democrats only received 44.24 per cent in the most recent city parliament election held on 10 October.

Public opinion agency Karmasin found earlier this year that 80 per cent of Austrians consider natural disaster protection to be the army’s top responsibility, while only 15 per cent named defence.

The number of people supporting the abolishment of the six-month army service is understood to be on the rise. In what is regarded as the expression of many people’s opinion, Häupl said: "The circumstances for Austria have changed dramatically. I also think that young men shouldn’t waste six months of their lives."

The influential Social Democrat said Austria would benefit as a whole if those currently called up by the army to serve for half a year would start to work or start studying at university right after finishing school.

Greens MP Peter Pilz branded the current system as a "money sink". The right-wing Alliance for the Future of Austria (BZÖ) has also spoken out in support of a reform of the army. Pilz said he could imagine organising a referendum on the issue.

ÖVP Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger suggested recently that the army should be allowed to pick the most-skilled young Austrians to serve the mandatory six-month service.

Around 46,000 Austrian men have to undergo two-day medical checks every year to find out whether they are fit enough for the conscription. More than 14,000 of the 25,800 who passed the series of checks opted to serve as Zivildiener in the so-called Zivildienst scheme last year.

Charity organisations and healthcare officials praise the alternative programme – in which the young men work in hospitals, retirement homes or for the Red Cross – as an essential support to their daily responsibilities, and warned from axing it as part of an possibly upcoming army reform.

Meanwhile, experts are at odds over whether a fully professional but smaller army would be more expensive than the current system. Some studies suggest the government would have to spend more money on the army if it abandoned the conscription model as soldiers are currently compensated with just around 300 Euros a month during their mandatory six-month duty.

The SPÖ-ÖVP coalition spends around 2.1 billion Euros a year – only 0.79 per cent of the gross domestic product (GDP) – on the army which currently participates in several international peacekeeping missions with around 1,200 soldiers.

Austria is just one of six of the European Union’s (EU) 27 member states which still have a conscription system. Sweden got rid of the model earlier this year, while the German government plans to reduce the federal army’s staff and stop calling up soldiers from 2011.

http://austrianindependent.com/news/Politics/2010-12-13/5626/Army_aims_to_sell_over_500_tanks
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 04:55:44 AM »

"Keep only the draftees and sack all the professional soldiers" is presumably not an option?

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Franzl
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2010, 05:24:06 AM »

Conscription is a disgrace to
any free and democratic society. It's very authoritarian to just steal 6 months of someone's life like that.

I've had my experiences with this BS...and I've fought them until the very end in Germany to avoid service. Looks like it was successful, as it seems unlikely that people will be involuntarily called in any more, even if the actual abolition is in July.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2010, 08:00:57 AM »

I'd probably abstain as I dislike the idea of a draft, but would be very concerned about the civil service disappearing.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 08:05:01 AM »

New poll out today by the Linzer Institut für Sozialforschung (1005 Austrians aged 16+ questioned in October and November):

Question: Do you think the Army draft is necessary and do you want to keep it ?

52% in favor (23% strongly favor, 29% somewhat favor)
47% opposed (21% strongly opposed, 26% somewhat opposed)

The biggest support was (unsurprisingly) in the states of Burgenland and Lower Austria with 56%, the lowest support in Upper Austria with 49%.

16-19 year olds: 42% support
50 years and older: 58% support



Do you support a mandatory civil service for everybody instead of the draft ?

72% support

More women than men support the draft (54% vs. 51%).

More women also support the mandatory civil service (73% vs. 70%).



http://www.public-opinion.at/wordpress/?p=313

http://www.salzburg.com/online/ticker/aktuell/Wehrpflicht-fuer-Haelfte-der-Oesterreicher-sinnvoll.html?article=eGMmOI8VdopLt6OwgkU8WH7JAqin1POXB8UvKXB&img=&text=&mode=
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 08:05:42 AM »

I like how the poll results for Salzburg, Tyrol and Vorarlberg exactly mirror my thoughts (50-50).

Tongue
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 08:24:57 AM »

If support for civil service (mandatory or not) is really that high, I think the government should include a question about it as well in the referendum.
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Franzl
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 08:49:23 AM »

I'd probably abstain as I dislike the idea of a draft, but would be very concerned about the civil service disappearing.

Good to see you like slavery. That's not even hyperbole...it's slavery.


Imagine what kind of money I've paid for my legal representation. It's not funny.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 08:53:47 AM »

BTW: Has any country ever voted in a draft referendum ? And did it vote Yes ?
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Franzl
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 08:58:23 AM »

Women shouldn't be allowed to vote in the referendum. They don't have to pay lawyers 2000€ to avoid going into slavery.
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Insula Dei
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 09:04:32 AM »

I'd probably abstain as I dislike the idea of a draft, but would be very concerned about the civil service disappearing.

Good to see you like slavery. That's not even hyperbole...it's slavery.


Imagine what kind of money I've paid for my legal representation. It's not funny.

As I said: I dislike the draft.

And as Tender said the civil service disappearing would be a little tragedy for organizations like the Red Cross.

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Franzl
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 09:06:52 AM »

I don't care about those organizations. If they need more workers, then they need to pay market based wages that people will voluntarily agree to.
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Tender Branson
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 09:23:16 AM »

Indeed, I have done some research and I´m now more leaning towards abolishing the draft and introduction of a voluntary civil service.

Why ?

Even though experts say that abolishing civil service would be bad for Red Cross etc., I have looked up some numbers today.

In Austria, the Red Cross employs 6.000 full-time workers and 60.000 voluntary workers. In 2009, voluntary workers increased by 6% compared with 2008.

Only 4000 Civil Servants are employed with the Red Cross, which is 6% of all people working there.

If the Civil Service is cut and the 4000 Civil Servants are not payed their 400 or so Euros each month anymore, the Red Cross could instead launch a big advertising campaign with this money to get more volunteers or paid workers.

As for the draft, I would be in favor of abolition if the costs would remain about the same as it is now, which would mean less active duty forces. Currently about 40.000-50.000 people are in the Austrian army, so I would favor a reduction to about 15.000 soldiers, with full pay and mainly for national disaster help. That would keep costs roughly where they are today.

I also strongly support Minister Darabos' (SPÖ) sale of unnecessary weapons, like the 500 tanks mentioned above.
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Franzl
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 09:27:21 AM »

I'm glad Germany never considered the mandatory Civil Service as an alternative. I was afraid that might be the "compromise", but it appears Guttenberg did a great job at convincing the government he was right and that it was the right thing to do for everyone involved.

Shame I wasn't born a year or so later, though...I could have saved a lot of time and money.
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k-onmmunist
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 09:34:02 AM »

I would vote against. Conscription sucks.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2010, 09:57:47 AM »

Slaves weren't paid wages. And could be corporally punished.
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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2010, 10:06:45 AM »

BTW: Has any country ever voted in a draft referendum ? And did it vote Yes ?

Referendums are for pussies anyway. In Germany, we've got our wannabe monarch as defense minister who simply decides to do it. Tongue
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Franzl
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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2010, 10:13:38 AM »

Slaves weren't paid wages. And could be corporally punished.

You're forced (if you don't have a good lawyer like I do) to perform
hard work against your will. That is a form of slavery.
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2010, 10:19:34 AM »

Slaves weren't paid wages. And could be corporally punished.

You're forced (if you don't have a good lawyer like I do) to perform
hard work against your will. That is a form of slavery.

Unless you become someone else's property it ain't slavery.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2010, 10:42:57 AM »

No hard work in the army for draftees. Nor on most Zivi jobs. The most you can argue it's a waste of time. But most people leaving school don't really know what to do anyways (hence why the FSJ/FÖJ has become so popular ever since fewer people get called up.)

It's not comparable in any way or form to slavery, at least as the west knew it - and I'm including serfdom here.
It's also rather insulting not just to those not many generations away from having been slaves, but also to draft veterans. Or former Zivis, might I add. Tongue
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Franzl
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2010, 10:58:18 AM »

Well I'm glad you enjoyed your "waste of time". I'm happy I won't be subject to the humiliation of earning 2€/h for a job that I never wanted.
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2010, 02:57:32 PM »

National service (which was military only, except for conscientious objectors) was abolished in the UK in the early 1960s. There have been
calls for its return ever since, though usually in the form of a civilian force.

More recently the government is considering forcing welfare claimants to work - without paying them a minimum wage, just their welfare benefit.

Is this slavery? It's clearly forced labour. Does slavery necessarily mean work without wages? In the Roman empire, some slaves WERE paid - in fact some of them earned enough to have slaves themselves. They were, however, not free to seek employment with another master.

Up till the 19th century, British workers only had limited freedom of movement - if they left their job without consent they could be charged with a criminal offence, rather than a mere breach of contract.

Of course millions of people are obliged to stay in jobs they hate, through lack of any attractive alternative. Is this slavery? It's certainly called that in extreme cases (eg domestic servants who are illegal immigrants)

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Franzl
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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2010, 03:10:15 PM »

In both cases, whether as a condition for welfare benefits or simply having a job you hate....You're still free to refuse without fear of legal prosecution.

I know it's not practical....but it's a big big difference in principle.
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« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 03:55:41 PM »

As the least sporty/athletic person I know, I would have been wasted on the Army if I had been subjected to National Service.  (That hasn't stopped me joining a military band though.)  For that reason, I think conscription is a bad idea per se.

A friend has dual British and Hungarian citizenship, and got served with his callup papers while living in Hungary.  He managed to get out of it by playing dumb throughout the interview and pretending he didn't know a word of Hungarian.
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« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2010, 11:31:30 AM »

To abolish. I oppose conscription.
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