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Poll
Question: in the Austrian "conscription referendum" in January 2013 ?
#1
Keep the mandatory 6-month draft and 9 month civil service
 
#2
Abolish the draft & civil service and create a professional army
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 99

Author Topic: How would you vote ...  (Read 26876 times)
Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« on: December 14, 2010, 04:35:19 AM »

There will be a referendum next June about the points mentioned above. The defense ministry is currently working on 5 alternative plans, out of which the most effective "professional army"-plan will be put to a referendum.

As you may know, Germany recently ended their draft, that's why there's a big debate about it here too.

There were only 2 referendums so far in Austria since WW2 (one about the introduction of nuclear energy in the 70s, which was rejected and the joining of the EU in the 90s, which was approved).

You have to know that if the draft is abolished, the Civil Service will also be abolished. The Civil Service is rather useful to organisations like the Red Cross, Caritas and Nursing homes, because Civil Servants are cheap and provide a high standard of rapid emergency care with the Red Cross. It it would be abolished, it would be a big blow to these organisations.

The opinion polls are currently slightly in favor of abolishing the draft.

I´m currently very undecided about how I would vote on it, mostly because a professional army would likely increase spending for the Military and about the negative social impact of abolishing the proven Civil Service.

...

Here's an article about the military and the draft:

Austrian Army aims to sell over 500 tanks



The Austrian army is to put more than 500 tanks up for sale, it has emerged.

Social Democratic (SPÖ) Defence Minister Norbert Darabos announced today (Mon) that he has decided to reduce the federal army’s tank fleet by 578. The minister also said the army will sell 100 armoured howitzers.

Darabos explained his decision as a result of the "changed threats" which face Austria today. The minister explained it was unlikely that Austria – a neutral nation by constitution since 1955 – could be engaged in tank warfare in the foreseeable future.

The defence minister claimed that the amount the army will make from selling the tanks and vehicles was "not that important", adding that his "chief priority is lowering the army’s operating costs by 12 million Euros a year".

The Hungarian government has already shown interest in purchasing some of the tanks, according to reports.

Darabos also announced he wanted to reduce the army’s staff by 1,000 during the coming four years, mostly by not assigning new personnel when employees retire. The defence minister also said he will ask hundreds of the army’s current office workers to leave and start working for the finance ministry or the police.

The Austrian army currently consists of nearly 16,000 full-time solders and 9,200 civilian personnel such as secretaries and chefs.

Speaking about the federal army’s representation in federal capital Vienna, the minister revealed he planned to shut and sell seven barracks across the city. Darabos said: "I imagine we will earn 30 million Euros by selling those facilities."

The defence minister claimed all buildings up for sale soon were "excellently situated", adding that the army’s Viennese departments will soon be located in just one barrack.

These extensive cost-cutting measures follow months of heated debate between coalition partners SPÖ and the People’s Party (ÖVP) over the future of the Austrian army.

The SPÖ had vehemently defended the Austrian conscription system for decades, before Viennese SPÖ Mayor Michael Häupl suggested a referendum should be held over the issue.

Commentators said the statement was nothing but an attempt by Häupl to retain his party’s absolute majority in the city parliament since it came a week before residents of Vienna were set to vote. Around 49 per cent were enough for a majority in seats for the SPÖ in the Viennese election in 2005. The Social Democrats only received 44.24 per cent in the most recent city parliament election held on 10 October.

Public opinion agency Karmasin found earlier this year that 80 per cent of Austrians consider natural disaster protection to be the army’s top responsibility, while only 15 per cent named defence.

The number of people supporting the abolishment of the six-month army service is understood to be on the rise. In what is regarded as the expression of many people’s opinion, Häupl said: "The circumstances for Austria have changed dramatically. I also think that young men shouldn’t waste six months of their lives."

The influential Social Democrat said Austria would benefit as a whole if those currently called up by the army to serve for half a year would start to work or start studying at university right after finishing school.

Greens MP Peter Pilz branded the current system as a "money sink". The right-wing Alliance for the Future of Austria (BZÖ) has also spoken out in support of a reform of the army. Pilz said he could imagine organising a referendum on the issue.

ÖVP Foreign Minister Michael Spindelegger suggested recently that the army should be allowed to pick the most-skilled young Austrians to serve the mandatory six-month service.

Around 46,000 Austrian men have to undergo two-day medical checks every year to find out whether they are fit enough for the conscription. More than 14,000 of the 25,800 who passed the series of checks opted to serve as Zivildiener in the so-called Zivildienst scheme last year.

Charity organisations and healthcare officials praise the alternative programme – in which the young men work in hospitals, retirement homes or for the Red Cross – as an essential support to their daily responsibilities, and warned from axing it as part of an possibly upcoming army reform.

Meanwhile, experts are at odds over whether a fully professional but smaller army would be more expensive than the current system. Some studies suggest the government would have to spend more money on the army if it abandoned the conscription model as soldiers are currently compensated with just around 300 Euros a month during their mandatory six-month duty.

The SPÖ-ÖVP coalition spends around 2.1 billion Euros a year – only 0.79 per cent of the gross domestic product (GDP) – on the army which currently participates in several international peacekeeping missions with around 1,200 soldiers.

Austria is just one of six of the European Union’s (EU) 27 member states which still have a conscription system. Sweden got rid of the model earlier this year, while the German government plans to reduce the federal army’s staff and stop calling up soldiers from 2011.

http://austrianindependent.com/news/Politics/2010-12-13/5626/Army_aims_to_sell_over_500_tanks
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 08:05:01 AM »

New poll out today by the Linzer Institut für Sozialforschung (1005 Austrians aged 16+ questioned in October and November):

Question: Do you think the Army draft is necessary and do you want to keep it ?

52% in favor (23% strongly favor, 29% somewhat favor)
47% opposed (21% strongly opposed, 26% somewhat opposed)

The biggest support was (unsurprisingly) in the states of Burgenland and Lower Austria with 56%, the lowest support in Upper Austria with 49%.

16-19 year olds: 42% support
50 years and older: 58% support



Do you support a mandatory civil service for everybody instead of the draft ?

72% support

More women than men support the draft (54% vs. 51%).

More women also support the mandatory civil service (73% vs. 70%).



http://www.public-opinion.at/wordpress/?p=313

http://www.salzburg.com/online/ticker/aktuell/Wehrpflicht-fuer-Haelfte-der-Oesterreicher-sinnvoll.html?article=eGMmOI8VdopLt6OwgkU8WH7JAqin1POXB8UvKXB&img=&text=&mode=
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2010, 08:05:42 AM »

I like how the poll results for Salzburg, Tyrol and Vorarlberg exactly mirror my thoughts (50-50).

Tongue
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2010, 08:24:57 AM »

If support for civil service (mandatory or not) is really that high, I think the government should include a question about it as well in the referendum.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 08:53:47 AM »

BTW: Has any country ever voted in a draft referendum ? And did it vote Yes ?
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 09:23:16 AM »

Indeed, I have done some research and I´m now more leaning towards abolishing the draft and introduction of a voluntary civil service.

Why ?

Even though experts say that abolishing civil service would be bad for Red Cross etc., I have looked up some numbers today.

In Austria, the Red Cross employs 6.000 full-time workers and 60.000 voluntary workers. In 2009, voluntary workers increased by 6% compared with 2008.

Only 4000 Civil Servants are employed with the Red Cross, which is 6% of all people working there.

If the Civil Service is cut and the 4000 Civil Servants are not payed their 400 or so Euros each month anymore, the Red Cross could instead launch a big advertising campaign with this money to get more volunteers or paid workers.

As for the draft, I would be in favor of abolition if the costs would remain about the same as it is now, which would mean less active duty forces. Currently about 40.000-50.000 people are in the Austrian army, so I would favor a reduction to about 15.000 soldiers, with full pay and mainly for national disaster help. That would keep costs roughly where they are today.

I also strongly support Minister Darabos' (SPÖ) sale of unnecessary weapons, like the 500 tanks mentioned above.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 03:41:13 AM »

New poll by OGM for "Kurier" newspaper:



Should the draft be abolished ?

54% YES (Men: 50%, Women: 58%)
41% NO (Men: 44%, Women: 38%)

If the draft is abolished, with what should it be replaced ?

67% Professional army
27% Volunteer army

Should there be a mandatory "Social Year" instead of the Civil Service ?

69% In Favor (Men: 79%, Women: 60%)
27% Opposed (Men: 19%, Women: 36%)
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 05:10:57 PM »

Side fact:

My parents, who are both right-leaning voters, will vote to abolish the draft.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2011, 12:57:26 PM »

Defense Minister Norbert Darabos (SPÖ) prefers the Swedish army model:

A professional army with a militia component, in which each soldier starts with a pay of 2500$ a month, 14 times a year. Each soldier would have to sign up for 8 years of service, for a total of 20.000 soldiers.

The Civil Service would be scrapped and a all-voluntary Social Year would be introduced instead. The SPÖ thinks 4000 people will volunteer each year because the starting wage would be about 1900$ a month, 14-times a year, which would be about 4 times more than what a Civil Servant now gets.

The ÖVP and FPÖ have already said that they strongly oppose these plans and that they are in favor of keeping the draft and the Civil Service.

SPÖ, Greens and BZÖ favor the SPÖ plan.

SPÖ, Greens, BZÖ have a 94-88 majority in the parliament, with 1 Independent (former BZÖ).

There's a new Gallup poll out today, in which Austrians would favor the professional army by 60-31 over the draft, if there were a referendum on the issue.

http://derstandard.at/1293370749550/Darabos-fuer-schwedisches-Modell
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2011, 01:07:35 PM »

Any chance of the government breaking over this?

At any rate, congratluations for recognizing what the correct thing to do is....Smiley

Could be. The issue is very polarizing and important and Austrian coalitions have already fallen because of issues that were much less important -> see 2008.

Let's see what the party of "no" (ÖVP) does in the next months.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2011, 01:21:56 PM »

For anyone who can read German (Franzl, Lewis etc.) here's a good article about the issue:

Weg mit der Wehrpflicht! Warum das Bundesheer völlig neu definiert gehört.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2011, 12:38:19 PM »

No, Antonio....I have a good lawyer. I didn't do military service Smiley

You dirty privileged... Grin

Seriously though, I would also probably have tried any possible way to escape it. Wink

Yeah it's pretty crazy, the way it works in Germany right now. Only about 50% of 18-year olds are declared "medically fit" to serve......and of those, only about 50% ever actually get a letter telling them to report for duty.

Unfortunately, I was unlucky on both Smiley

What do you need to be "mentally fit" to serve in the military ? I thought officers prefered when their soldiers don't think too much. Grin

In Austria, about 15% of those drafted each year are determined "unfit" for service due to medical or psychlogical reasons, including me. That's why I had the luck to do neither service: military, nor civil service ... Wink
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2011, 01:31:28 AM »

No, Antonio....I have a good lawyer. I didn't do military service Smiley

You dirty privileged... Grin

Seriously though, I would also probably have tried any possible way to escape it. Wink

Yeah it's pretty crazy, the way it works in Germany right now. Only about 50% of 18-year olds are declared "medically fit" to serve......and of those, only about 50% ever actually get a letter telling them to report for duty.

Unfortunately, I was unlucky on both Smiley

What do you need to be "mentally fit" to serve in the military ? I thought officers prefered when their soldiers don't think too much. Grin

In Austria, about 15% of those drafted each year are determined "unfit" for service due to medical or psychlogical reasons, including me. That's why I had the luck to do neither service: military, nor civil service ... Wink

Do you take a test or something like that to be deemed unfit ? How does than work.

Yeah, it's called the "Musterung", in which every 18-year old Austrian guy has to drive to the next military commando center, get rid of his clothes and is left only with either green or pink underpants. Then the medical and psychological tests start. I was ruled "unfit for service" because I have a congenital valvular heart defect (nothing serious though, but the military cannot risk taking people with heart problems, for legal reasons or so).
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 02:30:30 AM »

There's a new OGM poll out today for the Kurier-newspaper about changing the draft system and the sacking of the top-General Entacher by Defense Minister Darabos.

Read more about it here:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=107855.msg2796353#msg2796353



Austrians oppose by 28-53 the sacking of the popular Military General by Minister Darabos.

Only 27% of Austrians think that Darabos is "able to reform" the Military, 58% think he's unable.

45% of Austrians think that Defense Minister Darabos should step down, 34% oppose this.

68% of Austrians will take part in a referendum about ending the draft, 32% will not.

43% of Austrians now favor keeping the draft system, 49% are opposed.

47% of Austrians now favor a professional army, even if it costs the taxpayers more money than the current system. 45% of the people are opposed.

http://kurier.at/nachrichten/2068804.php
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 02:35:24 AM »

BTW, the lead of the abolition side was cut in half since a Kurier/OGM poll 1 month ago ...
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2011, 02:53:07 PM »

Uh-oh. The situation has now changed in favor of keeping the draft.

New Standard/Market poll out today:

56% Keep the current draft system
41% Abolish the draft and introduce a professional army

http://derstandard.at/1296696306438/Umfrage-56-Prozent-fuer-Beibehaltung-der-Wehrpflicht

Tomorrow, a no-confidence vote will take place against Defense Minister Darabos of the SPÖ.

Josef Pröll, ÖVP-leader and Vice-Chancellor, has said that ÖVP-MPs can vote freely if they support the Defense Minister or not ...

Should be fun !

Smiley
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2011, 02:24:43 AM »

Tomorrow, a no-confidence vote will take place against Defense Minister Darabos of the SPÖ.

Josef Pröll, ÖVP-leader and Vice-Chancellor, has said that ÖVP-MPs can vote freely if they support the Defense Minister or not ...

Should be fun !

Smiley

It seems that Pröll now got cold feet and said in a newspaper interview that Darabos "will remain Defense Minister" and that "the ÖVP will not vote against him".

He probably knows what would happen otherwise: New elections and the FPÖ coming out as the strongest party.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2011, 01:52:06 PM »

Tomorrow, a no-confidence vote will take place against Defense Minister Darabos of the SPÖ.

Josef Pröll, ÖVP-leader and Vice-Chancellor, has said that ÖVP-MPs can vote freely if they support the Defense Minister or not ...

Should be fun !

Smiley

It seems that Pröll now got cold feet and said in a newspaper interview that Darabos "will remain Defense Minister" and that "the ÖVP will not vote against him".

He probably knows what would happen otherwise: New elections and the FPÖ coming out as the strongest party.

Darabos remains Defense Minister, all 3 no-confidence-votes by Greens/FPÖ/BZÖ were rejected with the votes of SPÖVP.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 02:53:51 AM »

New Lower Austria poll by GfK:



Abolish the draft ?

39% Yes
57% No

http://www.noen.at/news/politik/In-Niederoesterreich-57-fuer-Wehrpflicht;art150,28061

In a new Salzburg poll, 55% want the draft to continue.

98% of those polled also say that they see the mandatory Civil Service as extremely or somewhat important for the society.

If the draft and civil service is abolished, 42% of those polled favor a mandatory Social Year for men and women, 11% for men only and 41% support a voluntary Social Year with a pay of at least 1900$ a month.

http://www.salzburg.com/online/nachrichten/newsletter/SN-Umfrage-Zivildienst-absolut-unverzichtbar.html?article=eGMmOI8VdIvty3WgJfCeHHEWfwwqv6nlidsEhOz&img=&text=&mode=
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 05:52:53 AM »

98% like slave labor?

Why do so many Austrians hate freedom? Wink

Because they think that other systems of professional armys will be much more expensive (see NATO countries), natural disaster relief more complicated and the social safety net more porous, so they favor the current system.

And there's probably also the "if I had to do it when I was young and it didn't kill me, the young people of today should have to do it as well"-mentality ... Wink
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2011, 01:52:11 AM »

New Gallup/Ö24 poll:

47% favor the end of the draft
44% favor the draft system
  9% undecided (mostly Green voters)

Referendum:

52% Professional Army
48% Draft System

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/politik/Schon-74-sind-mit-Koalition-unzufrieden/17589730
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2011, 02:19:34 PM »

Support for abolishing the draft is now significantly down in the accurate OGM/Kurier poll:



49% still favor a professional army, 46% the current draft.

But this is down from 54-41 in December and 49-43 in January.

58% of Austrians also favor a referendum on the issue, while 35% say the parties should decide.

67% also support Austria's neutrality, 24% not.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2011, 01:12:26 AM »

Any idea when (if) such a referendum will be happening?

I don't know really if there will really be a referendum or if the SPÖVP government will make some compromise about national security. June or July has been mentioned for a possible referendum date.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2011, 03:32:02 AM »


The second post on this page might be a reason.
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Tender Branson
Mark Warner 08
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 58,155
Austria


Political Matrix
E: -6.06, S: -4.84

« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2011, 11:12:36 AM »

98% like slave labor?

Why do so many Austrians hate freedom? Wink

Because they think that other systems of professional armys will be much more expensive (see NATO countries), natural disaster relief more complicated and the social safety net more porous, so they favor the current system.

And there's probably also the "if I had to do it when I was young and it didn't kill me, the young people of today should have to do it as well"-mentality ... Wink

This explains why some people oppose it, not why people initially supported it then changed their minds. Tongue

People were not so much informed about the negatives of abolishing the draft first. Then they got more informed, got angered at how the Defense Minister handled the situation and changed their opinion.

Also the fact that people could increasingly fear that Austria's neutrality would be in danger when the draft is abolished and that that could lead to a NATO membership. Some SPÖ figures, like the Vienna Mayor, are in favor or strongly co-operating with surrounding NATO countries.

Maybe also Libya plays a role now, giving up the draft and switching over to another system during tough times in the North-African areas could be influencing people's opinions.

...

Anyway: Talks about a new Security Policy and the future of the draft will start between SPÖ and ÖVP next week. If they can't find common ground, a referendum is likely in June or July. If the referendum isn't really tight, then one party will be the big loser in the coalition for the next 2 years. Or the coalition breaks apart ... Tongue
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