California adopts Cap-n-Trade

[Landslide Lyndon]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703395204576024650186378260.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

By CASSANDRA SWEET

SAN FRANCISCO --California regulators late Thursday adopted the first large-scale cap-and-trade program in the U.S., in a move officials say will protect the environment without hurting the state's still-struggling economy.

In a 9-1 vote, the state Air Resources Board voted to adopt rules, scheduled to start in 2012, that place a limit on greenhouse-gas emissions for the state that will decline over time.

Power plants, refineries and other industrial facilities that emit carbon dioxide and can't cut their emissions by the required amount will be able to obtain pollution allowances from the state or buy them from other emitters with excess allowances.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said the cap-and-trade rules will help fight climate change and also boost California's clean-technology industry and overall economy.

"Billions of dollars are being poured into California in clean technology venture capital investment," Mr. Schwarzenegger said. "Of course, we have to be sensitive because it's an economic downturn, and this Air Resources Board knows they have to be sensitive. But we have to reach our goals by 2020."

Companies with facilities that emit carbon dioxide could also purchase carbon credits, or offsets, tied to emission-reduction projects, such as forests that are managed to contain carbon dioxide, to comply with required emission cuts.

...

[Sbane]

I wonder how much electricity rates will increase due to this.

Though it could help spur more green companies, perhaps leading to the next boom.

[-]

Great!

[Sbane]

Great!

You support cap and trade?

[-]

Great!

You support cap and trade?

Always have.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Hey China, how much are you willing to chop off our debt if we just give you California?



Suicide, mindless suicide.

[Frink]

Oh, god.

[Sbane]

Suicide, mindless suicide.

For the poor, sure. I don't think VC money in Silicon Valley hates this bill that much. This is yet another step in creating a more unequal state.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Suicide, mindless suicide.

For the poor, sure. I don't think VC money in Silicon Valley hates this bill that much. This is yet another step in creating a more unequal state.

For the CA economy in general but also the poor. It takes more then VC to drive an economy.

 

[redcommander]

Another reason I can't wait to leave this crap hole of a state.

[dead0man]

California is awesome at finding new ways to push business away.

[Franzl]

California is awesome at finding new pays to push business away.

I guess they figure it can't get much worse?

I do actually support the idea of cap-and-trade....at least if implemented at the national level. But even then, there are certain issues with it.

[Skill and Chance]

And in a few years, when this has had no measurable effect on California's economy, or even a positive one, this won't be a big deal any more.

[Mr. Taft Republican]

Hey China, how much are you willing to chop off our debt if we just give you California?



Suicide, mindless suicide.

But suicide by their choice! Kavorkian would be proud.

[cinyc]

And in a few years, when this has had no measurable effect on California's economy, or even a positive one, this won't be a big deal any more.

Yeah, because raising the price of energy and therefore the price of everything for no good reason never has any effect on the economy.  As usual, California is doing everything in its power to make its business climate the worst in the country.

[Skill and Chance]

And in a few years, when this has had no measurable effect on California's economy, or even a positive one, this won't be a big deal any more.

Yeah, because raising the price of energy and therefore the price of everything for no good reason never has any effect on the economy.  As usual, California is doing everything in its power to make its business climate the worst in the country.

So you deny that human CO2 emissions cause climate change?  The economic rationale for taxing pollution is that the damages from the pollution are doing more damage to the economy than the extra profits from unabated pollution add to the economy.  Can you demonstrate that CO2 caps have hurt the EU economically in any meaningful way?  Given the uncertainty in possible outcomes of global warming, some of them so severe that they would make 10% unemployment for the rest of our lives look rosy, some regulation is justified as a societal insurance policy even if you might question the science.  And China is right now cornering the market on clean energy, in hopes that we will be dependent on them if/when we realize that all of those scientists were actually on to something. 

[Sbane]

How is "damage" from climate change to the California economy more than the cost of higher electricity prices for everybody? Cite?

[King]

How is "damage" from climate change to the California economy more than the cost of higher electricity prices for everybody? Cite?

California could be flooded by the melting glacier monsters before the debt collectors can reach Sacramento.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And in a few years, when this has had no measurable effect on California's economy, or even a positive one, this won't be a big deal any more.

Yeah, because raising the price of energy and therefore the price of everything for no good reason never has any effect on the economy.  As usual, California is doing everything in its power to make its business climate the worst in the country.

So you deny that human CO2 emissions cause climate change?  The economic rationale for taxing pollution is that the damages from the pollution are doing more damage to the economy than the extra profits from unabated pollution add to the economy.  Can you demonstrate that CO2 caps have hurt the EU economically in any meaningful way?  Given the uncertainty in possible outcomes of global warming, some of them so severe that they would make 10% unemployment for the rest of our lives look rosy, some regulation is justified as a societal insurance policy even if you might question the science.  And China is right now cornering the market on clean energy, in hopes that we will be dependent on them if/when we realize that all of those scientists were actually on to something. 

Can you demonstrate that the caps have actually reduced emissions?

[Lunar]

And in a few years, when this has had no measurable effect on California's economy, or even a positive one, this won't be a big deal any more.

Yeah, because raising the price of energy and therefore the price of everything for no good reason never has any effect on the economy.  As usual, California is doing everything in its power to make its business climate the worst in the country.

So you deny that human CO2 emissions cause climate change?  The economic rationale for taxing pollution is that the damages from the pollution are doing more damage to the economy than the extra profits from unabated pollution add to the economy.  Can you demonstrate that CO2 caps have hurt the EU economically in any meaningful way?  Given the uncertainty in possible outcomes of global warming, some of them so severe that they would make 10% unemployment for the rest of our lives look rosy, some regulation is justified as a societal insurance policy even if you might question the science.  And China is right now cornering the market on clean energy, in hopes that we will be dependent on them if/when we realize that all of those scientists were actually on to something. 

Can you demonstrate that the caps have actually reduced emissions?

Isn't that a little unfair of a burden?  A cap, by definition, is more of a limit on growth than a reducer.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

And in a few years, when this has had no measurable effect on California's economy, or even a positive one, this won't be a big deal any more.

Yeah, because raising the price of energy and therefore the price of everything for no good reason never has any effect on the economy.  As usual, California is doing everything in its power to make its business climate the worst in the country.

So you deny that human CO2 emissions cause climate change?  The economic rationale for taxing pollution is that the damages from the pollution are doing more damage to the economy than the extra profits from unabated pollution add to the economy.  Can you demonstrate that CO2 caps have hurt the EU economically in any meaningful way?  Given the uncertainty in possible outcomes of global warming, some of them so severe that they would make 10% unemployment for the rest of our lives look rosy, some regulation is justified as a societal insurance policy even if you might question the science.  And China is right now cornering the market on clean energy, in hopes that we will be dependent on them if/when we realize that all of those scientists were actually on to something. 

Can you demonstrate that the caps have actually reduced emissions?

Isn't that a little unfair of a burden?  A cap, by definition, is more of a limit on growth than a reducer.

Well if something is growing at a lower rate, then technically it will be smaller now then it would be if it was growing at the original rate. The reduction is the difference between what it would have been without them and what they are now. Of course we can't be sure how much they would have been without them by now because projections can't account for recessions, technological changes, etc.

[Landslide Lyndon]

What happened to the idea of States as Laboratories of Democracy and political experiment?

[Franzl]

What happened to the idea of States as Laboratories of Democracy and political experiment?

Absolutely, California should feel free to put itself at a massive disadvantage if it wants.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What happened to the idea of States as Laboratories of Democracy and political experiment?

Which also includes the the freedom to fail at those experiments should they fail. Thus, no bailouts.

[cannonia]

So you deny that human CO2 emissions cause climate change?

Yes.

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Which is rational, but relies on flawed premises.

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Cap-and-trade has been a sham over in the EU, with failures to meet goals as well as eastern European states benefitting from the shutdown of Soviet-era factories.  In any case, European manufacturing has been moving offshore as well.  Yes, they suffer from their lack of competitiveness.

And does anyone really believe that these kinds of schemes will establish a long-term green manufacturing industry in the US?  The plants are in China because we're not competitive without subsidies.

tl;dr: CA government = fail government