Senate passes repeal of DADT with 65 votes

[opebo]

Even if they take the books seriously, that's not the same as extemists, bro.

I never said it was.  I'm just annoyed by faith. 

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Even if they take the books seriously, that's not the same as extemists, bro.

I never said it was.  I'm just annoyed by faith. 

You're not alone around these parts

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Comparisons to filth, mud, and vomit are an effective propaganda technique for associating the target with an individual's natural sense of disgust. Additional options are to associate them with infectious disease, vermin (rats, fleas), or decaying food.

please tell me you're joking

[opebo]

Comparisons to filth, mud, and vomit are an effective propaganda technique for associating the target with an individual's natural sense of disgust. Additional options are to associate them with infectious disease, vermin (rats, fleas), or decaying food.

please tell me you're joking

The beliefs you maintain, and the beliefs encouraged by the bible, are precisely analogous to that to which the excellent brittain33 refers.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I am genuinely curious about what the 'straight' therapy consists of. Besides something like hormonal treatments or some type of lobodomy I can't see therapy affecting your sexuality in anyway whatsoever. But I really would like to know, is it some kind of hypnosis or just prayer? Either way it has to be bullsh**t, but if it is just a 'pray the gay away' thing I've lost even more respect for the Christian religion.

Interestingly, we constantly hear of these studies and evidence that homosexuality is not something your born with, or that as Ted Haggard's wife says people can be 'conditioned' in their sexuality. But I've never seen any of it. Saying you know someone who 'used to be gay' is not evidence at all, just an irrational statement based on something you cannot prove. How can you know if someone's sexual attraction has changed? And if people can be conditioned in their sexuality does that mean heterosexuals can turn gay? Or people can turn themselves into pedophiles?

i don't buy into the therapy thing at all, nor do I believe that people are born again simply because they pray the "sinner's prayer".  God doesn't require a 12 step program of human works.  And I agree that testimonies cannot be proven or disproven, which is why it is idiotic and hypocritical to discount one side yet not discount the other side.

[Brittain33]

Comparisons to filth, mud, and vomit are an effective propaganda technique for associating the target with an individual's natural sense of disgust. Additional options are to associate them with infectious disease, vermin (rats, fleas), or decaying food.

please tell me you're joking

I am completely serious. I don't know if you're aware of what you're doing when you choose either harmful traits (lying, stealing, cheating) or those associated with disgust (mud, vomit) when making analogies to homosexuality, but it's an old tactic and easy to slip into. I'm sure it reflects your own feelings of disgust as well.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Comparisons to filth, mud, and vomit are an effective propaganda technique for associating the target with an individual's natural sense of disgust. Additional options are to associate them with infectious disease, vermin (rats, fleas), or decaying food.

please tell me you're joking

I am completely serious. I don't know if you're aware of what you're doing when you choose either harmful traits (lying, stealing, cheating) or those associated with disgust (mud, vomit) when making analogies to homosexuality, but it's an old tactic and easy to slip into. I'm sure it reflects your own feelings of disgust as well.

1) I could have easily chosen heterosexual fornication instead....but I simply chose sins we all have in common (idolatry, lying, cheating, stealing, greed).  For you to state sexual sin isn't harmful simply shows how degraded your mind has become.

2) the analogy of a washed pig returning to wallow in the mud and a dog returning to his vomit is an analogy Christ himself used in scripture to portray those who have been freed by Christ from the bondage of sin yet choose to return to it.  the analogy is applicable to any sin, sexual or otherwise.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I wanna see the dirty pig jmfcst in anti-straight therapy.

as if heterosexuality is something one needs to cleansed of?  And who said anything about "therapy"?  All it takes to be cleansed of sin is a meeting with Christ.

Ignoring the Christians who can reconcile their faith with their sexuality again jmfcst

no, I ignore "Christians" who hack the scriptures to suit what their itchy ears want to hear

Oh you mean like you do when you say gays shouldn't be put to death, or that slavery isn't a good thing, or that the first born shouldn't be sacrificed.   Unless if you believe in those things then you are hacking scriptures as well.

somewhere you missed the parts where bible repeatedly and explicitly claims the new covenant superceded the old.

[they don't love you like i love you]

Like Leviticus.

[Brittain33]

For you to state sexual sin isn't harmful simply shows how degraded your mind has become.

I don't consider harmful to one's soul to be objectively meaningful. It can be so for you, but I find that even people who cite religious scripture often lump that in with other assessments (you're unhappy, you don't know true love, you're going to get sick or become an alcoholic etc.) I measure harm differently from the way you do, and do so for all acts categorized as sins, not just the one that's central to who I am and how I live my life. On the factors other than the wellbeing of my soul, I know for certain my life would be worse if I tried to be celibate and single.

[Badger]

Pretty backward, bigoted views you've got.

Considering the opinions of the average Oklahoman, his views are liberal, deeply-felt, and well-reasoned.

Seriously. While I certainly don't share Bushie's views, its a fact that this is probably the best view one can hope for for tens of millions of conservative Christians for the next few decades.

So on a graded curve, Bushie isn't really that bad here at all. He's miles ahead of certain other posters here.

[Badger]

Reposted here for relevancy and truth.

Feel the love here!

Its so nice belonging to a pro-gay rights church. Gives Christianity a good name compared to the usual "gays are icky so Jesus must've disapproved too" crowd.

http://www.ucc.org/lgbt/about.html

The other side of the argument, FWIW.

http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

For you to state sexual sin isn't harmful simply shows how degraded your mind has become.

I don't consider harmful to one's soul to be objectively meaningful. It can be so for you, but I find that even people who cite religious scripture often lump that in with other assessments (you're unhappy, you don't know true love, you're going to get sick or become an alcoholic etc.) I measure harm differently from the way you do, and do so for all acts categorized as sins, not just the one that's central to who I am and how I live my life. On the factors other than the wellbeing of my soul, I know for certain my life would be worse if I tried to be celibate and single.

the bible says the wages of sin is death, and since death is the antithesis of being "healthy", you're basically arguing you reject the bible.  which is ok for the purpose of this argument.  just for future reference, there are only a few posters (opebo, JSJ, Andrew, Dibble, Naso, etc) on here whose positions on issues I remember, and you're not one of them (which is probably to your credit ) so in the future simply state that you reject the bible so I know where you're coming from.

having said that, I'm not going to going to tell you that you're "unhappy", for I wasn't "unhappy" before I came to Christ, I simply didn't have the peace and joy of having a clear conscience and knowing that everything was completely taken care of.

[Brittain33]

the bible says the wages of sin is death, and since death is the antithesis of being "healthy", you're basically arguing you reject the bible. 

True. Alternatively, I could be rejecting the New Testament or a literal reading of the Bible, but I accept that those may be functionally equivalent. I concede the metaphysical ground to you because I don't have the grounding to argue it, nor do I see it as worthwhile. Where I involve myself is when I perceive arguments that have some intersection with the physical world.

[King]

of course, you discount the testimony of the ones who actually escaped out of homosexuality. 

It's always been my belief that such "homosexual fixing" success stories are actually just bisexuals broadly painted as homosexuals by the ignorant fixers.  It's very easy to get somebody already attracted to the opposite sex to stick to the option that doesn't cause ridicule by their backwater community, family, and "friends."

[Brittain33]

the bible says the wages of sin is death, and since death is the antithesis of being "healthy",

See, this is an argument of the physical world as well as the metaphysical world. You're arguing that the Bible says that by committing the sin of homosexuality, I will die earlier than I would otherwise.  Is that your argument?

Do you believe that God kills people earlier if they're sinners?

[Einzige Mk. II]

If 'gay therapy' worked, it would work for everyone - you wouldn't expect to see failures like this. That's one of the reasons why Freudian psychoanalysis is pseudoscientific: unlike real medical treatment, it's 'selective', at best. The same criticism applies threefold to the 'ex-gay' movement.

[Brittain33]

The ex-gay movement doesn't mark success in terms of people who become straight--it does so in terms of people who try to suppress their same-sex sex drive and or get married, neither of which is the same.

Anyone remember John Paulk, who was a national spokesman for one of these groups until he was caught going into a gay bar in Washington, D.C.?

The women who marry these men are also victims.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

the bible says the wages of sin is death, and since death is the antithesis of being "healthy", you're basically arguing you reject the bible. 

True. Alternatively, I could be rejecting the New Testament or a literal reading of the Bible, but I accept that those may be functionally equivalent. I concede the metaphysical ground to you because I don't have the grounding to argue it, nor do I see it as worthwhile. Where I involve myself is when I perceive arguments that have some intersection with the physical world.

what part of the bible doesn't intersection with the physical world?

---

the bible says the wages of sin is death, and since death is the antithesis of being "healthy",

See, this is an argument of the physical world as well as the metaphysical world. You're arguing that the Bible says that by committing the sin of homosexuality, I will die earlier than I would otherwise.  Is that your argument?

Do you believe that God kills people earlier if they're sinners?

obviously, it impacts physical health, but not always to an early death.  but "the wages of sin is death" is referring to current spiritual death even though one is physically alive, as well as referring to the physical-spiritual "death" of eternal condemnation after the resurrection.

[Einzige Mk. II]

The ex-gay movement doesn't mark success in terms of people who become straight--it does so in terms of people who try to suppress their same-sex sex drive and or get married, neither of which is the same.

Anyone remember John Paulk, who was a national spokesman for one of these groups until he was caught going into a gay bar in Washington, D.C.?

The women who marry these men are also victims.

In other words, the ex-gay movement actually prides itself on failure -- if an individual is still 'struggling' with his or her homoerotic feelings, he's certainly not 'ex-gay'. But it's the thought that counts, dammit!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

If 'gay therapy' worked, it would work for everyone

that's a very dumb statement considering no kind of therapy works 100% of the time


---

- you wouldn't expect to see failures like this. That's one of the reasons why Freudian psychoanalysis is pseudoscientific: unlike real medical treatment, it's 'selective', at best. The same criticism applies threefold to the 'ex-gay' movement.

this whole tangential discussion of "therapy" and "ex-gay movement" is a straw-man, for I have never equated any "therapy"  or any 12 step program to a cleansing by Christ.  these programs are man attempted reformation, not Christ enabled recreation.  

some may find Christ while they are involved in a 12 step program, just as some may find Christ while reciting the sinner's prayer,  but it's not the motions of the 12 step program or the motions of the sinner's prayer that has any value, rather they simply opened to Christ while he was knocking on their heart's door.

[Brittain33]

what part of the bible doesn't intersection with the physical world?

The idea of a soul; life after death. Neither of these are observable or provable in the physical world. They exist because you believe the Bible says they exist and that the Bible is without error.
---

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obviously, it impacts physical health, but not always to an early death.  but "the wages of sin is death" is referring to current spiritual death even though one is physically alive, as well as referring to the physical-spiritual "death" of eternal condemnation after the resurrection.
[/quote]

"Spiritual death" is a meaningless statement to me, and therefore isn't the antithesis of being healthy, because it has nothing to do with any form of health that affects my life. I recognize physical, emotional, and financial health. Spiritual health is a vapid phrase to me because I don't have a soul and there is no account where it is being tracked.

[Einzige Mk. II]

that's a very dumb statement considering no kind of therapy works 100% of the time

You're absolutely right. Which is why psychology generally is considered a 'soft science' by its most lenient of critics, and an outright fraud by its most severe. 'Gay therapy' fails not only because its claim to metaphysical surety is a scam, but also because it relies on the same old tried-and-tired quasi-Freudian theories that put all forms of psychology to the lie.

this whole tangential discussion of "therapy" and "ex-gay movement" is a straw-man, for I have never equated any "therapy"  or any 12 step program to a cleansing by Christ.  these programs are man attempted reformation, not Christ enabled recreation.

Most 'ex-gay' movements claim to be 'Christ enabled', and almost invariably rely upon heavyhanded moralizing funneled through a 'Biblical worldview' to be effective.  

You must be logged in to read this quote.

You have created a world where it is literally impossible for you to be wrong. Any homosexual Christians are reprobate backsliders who aren't real Christians; conversely, anything in Christianity that can be considered true axiomatically validates your claims. You have effectively monopolized metaphysics.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

what part of the bible doesn't intersection with the physical world?

The idea of a soul; life after death. Neither of these are observable or provable in the physical world. They exist because you believe the Bible says they exist and that the Bible is without error.

yeah, but it still intersects with the physical world, just as Christ clothed himself in flesh, just as Gen 1:1 starts of with "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".


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You must be logged in to read this quote.

obviously, it impacts physical health, but not always to an early death.  but "the wages of sin is death" is referring to current spiritual death even though one is physically alive, as well as referring to the physical-spiritual "death" of eternal condemnation after the resurrection.

"Spiritual death" is a meaningless statement to me, and therefore isn't the antithesis of being healthy, because it has nothing to do with any form of health that affects my life. I recognize physical, emotional, and financial health. Spiritual health is a vapid phrase to me because I don't have a soul and there is no account where it is being tracked.
[/quote]

but you're leaving out the fact that your body will be resurrected and therefore directly impacts your physical health for all eternity

---

I think we are at an impasse, but it's been a civil discussion

[opebo]

but you're leaving out the fact that your body will be resurrected and therefore directly impacts your physical health for all eternity

You mean to say the p**f will have a s****g b**g for all eternity?  Kind of adding insult to injury, considering the fires of hell and demons and all that.