Spineless French government ignores insolent Muslim provocation

[Gustaf]

Here's a post I made on France's ban on the burqa. Please tell me again how I'm an anti-semitic racist.

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

[Insula Dei]

Here's a post I made on France's ban on the burqa. Please tell me again how I'm an anti-semitic racist.

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

1. Have I implied you're an anti-semitic racist? I'm higly sorry if that's the impression I've given you because it certainly wasn't my intention.

2. It seems we agree on the burqa ban

3. Problem I have with engaging the argument you are trying to make in this thread is because, quite honestly, I'm starting to feel at loss as to what that argument might actually be. I don't feel like you've clearly and unambiguously stated what your opinion boils down to. I accept that your position might be quite a bit too nuanced to be compressed into a three-word sentence, but I'd like if you would bang your head against the wall once more and try to briefly state your position.

4. No really, I wasn't trying to imply you were a Nazi, nor was I trying to discredit you or what you said in this thread by means of an old-fashioned ad hominem.

[Gustaf]

Here's a post I made on France's ban on the burqa. Please tell me again how I'm an anti-semitic racist.

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

1. Have I implied you're an anti-semitic racist? I'm higly sorry if that's the impression I've given you because it certainly wasn't my intention.

2. It seems we agree on the burqa ban

3. Problem I have with engaging the argument you are trying to make in this thread is because, quite honestly, I'm starting to feel at loss as to what that argument might actually be. I don't feel like you've clearly and unambiguously stated what your opinion boils down to. I accept that your position might be quite a bit too nuanced to be compressed into a three-word sentence, but I'd like if you would bang your head against the wall once more and try to briefly state your position.

4. No really, I wasn't trying to imply you were a Nazi, nor was I trying to discredit you or what you said in this thread by means of an old-fashioned ad hominem.

I'm sorry if I overreacted. I'm talking to both you and Ag at the same time and he just asked me if I liked Russians because they were blonde. That really pissed me off.

What Ag stated was that everyone who has a negative view (or it would seem, any view beyond viewing Muslims as victims of persecution who should be more accomodated) was a reincarnation of Hitler who actually wants to gas everyone but blonde Aryans if given a chance. I found this rather ridiculous so I've been arguing that this is not the case. That has apparently only led him to conclude that I'm one of those people and as soon as I get rid of the Muslims I will turn to my grandmother. She might have managed to escape Hitler, but I will finish the job, I suppose.

My case wasn't really about what I thought of Muslim immigration. Merely that I think it is possible for people in general to be sceptical about it without being racist.

For instance, many people don't like the concept of the burqa. I find this quite understandable. I don't like the concept of the burqa (even though I don't want to ban it). That isn't necessarily racist, imo. And then many people associate the burqa with Islam. Which, again, is quite reasonable since pretty much everyone who wears one is a Muslim (although many Muslims don't, of course). Thus, it is understandable that such people would be suspicious of Islam. Plenty of secular Westerners are hostile towards Catholicism. Surely, it is at least as reasonable to be equally hostile to Islam.

I never specified what this hostility or suspicion would entail. If it is "gas all the Muslims" or "throw out all the Muslims" or even something as commonplace as "ban the burqa" then I agree that it's a sign of xenophobia. I said so in the beginning of the thread. I never denied that there is a strong element of xenophobia in the hostility towards Islam.

But wanting for instance to increase scrutiny of Islamic schools (that we have in Sweden) to make sure that they do not deviate from the official curriculum of teaching concepts like evolution or gender equality is quite reasonable. Finding the hateful rhetoric spread in many mosques problematic isn't racist either. In general, recognizing that we have a problem with the Muslim immigrant minority in the sense that they are poorly integrated, do badly at school, do badly in the labour market and are overrepresented in crime statistics and that this is probably not SOLELY due to discrimination but might have something to do with how some of them are too hostile to the values of our society to want to interact with it is not, imo, inherently racist.

I will also note that I've seen both ends of this. In  my high school there was this really nice Bosnian girl, who read from the Quran in Arabic for us in a religion class. She is in law school now. I mentioned her in the thread that I took the above quote from, because she never wore a thing over her face. When I did physics in university the only guy I became friends with was this terrific Kurdish guy (we discussed Plato quite a bit). So I'm well aware that what I say does not apply to all Muslims. Just like most stuff we say about structural problems do not apply to all people.

But I've been doing volunteer work helping 14-year olds with their homework out in Hässelby which is a pretty poor and immigrant-dominated suburb to Stockholm. End of the line, literally speaking, if you take the metro. And there are problems there. Big ones. And I feel part of the reason these problems aren't being dealt with is that politicians, especially those on the left, are too afraid of being politically incorrect to openly state that it's an issue to have a bunch of religious fundamentalist without jobs, bundled together in a ghetto, not knowing the language and with downbeaten schools that no one cares about. It makes me sad, especially for those kids that I meet who aren't given the chance they deserve because they're constrained by their background.

I get that Ag is some kind of libertarian who doesn't give a fck but I expect more from the left.

[Хahar 🤔]

Anyway, as for the education system, sure there is a problem. Yet, not everyone fails in this system. The Iranians, Russians, Jews and Chinese to name some do just fine. Better than native Swedes, I believe.

You're confusing correlation with causation here. In North America, these problems are not faced by Muslim immigrants, who tend to be well-educated and affluent, but rather by Spanish-speaking immigrants, who do not.

[Gustaf]

Anyway, as for the education system, sure there is a problem. Yet, not everyone fails in this system. The Iranians, Russians, Jews and Chinese to name some do just fine. Better than native Swedes, I believe.

You're confusing correlation with causation here. In North America, these problems are not faced by Muslim immigrants, who tend to be well-educated and affluent, but rather by Spanish-speaking immigrants, who do not.

No, I'm not. It would be impossible since I wasn't arguing causation. But thanks for trying!

[ag]

Here's a post I made on France's ban on the burqa. Please tell me again how I'm an anti-semitic racist.

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

I know, I know ))  Once again, of course, I know, you are no GMantis (forgive me, if that's not very clear from what I've written).   The problem is, you still haven't made a point: what is it, that you are trying to say about the Muslims in Sweden. But you said a lot of things that, while pointless,  do not sound very liberal ))  Try to formulate, what is it, besides the vague dislike, that you want and feel.

[Gustaf]

Here's a post I made on France's ban on the burqa. Please tell me again how I'm an anti-semitic racist.

It's a pretty sad day for Europe. It shows that France's claim to be a bastion for enlightenment and progress is rather hollow.

Once you really start thinking about the arguments made for this and other similar laws and apply them to other areas that aren't as infected with xenophobia you realize how stupid this is.

Why not legislate against women wearing high heels? It's highly impractical, hindering women in endeavours as simple as crossing a street and forced upon women by the norms of society.

I know, I know ))  Once again, of course, I know, you are no GMantis (forgive me, if that's not very clear from what I've written).   The problem is, you still haven't made a point: what is it, that you are trying to say about the Muslims in Sweden. But you said a lot of things that, while pointless,  do not sound very liberal ))  Try to formulate, what is it, besides the vague dislike, that you want and feel.

It isn't really about what I want. You made a generalization about people who are critical of Islam. I've been arguing against that generalization. To do so, I need not include myself in it.

I don't particularly like what seems to be the dominant intepretation of Islam today, because that interpretation seems to entail sanctioning of violence, oppression of women, a fanatical hatred of Israel and a penchant for theocracy. Whether the interpretation will last or is at odds with holy texts of Islam, I've no idea. It's not really my business.

There are plenty of other ideologies or religions I don't like as well. Being a liberal, I don't want to outlaw them. Nor do I want to throw them out. Nor do I want the laws of my country to treat people differently based on their religion. I do think immigration needs to be restricted, given how the world looks but in my ideal world there would be no restrictions on the freedom of movement.

On issues where the state is involved and in my opinion should be involved - such as issues of discrimination or education policy I do believe at least some of the current policies in Sweden are too lenient on behaviour that I doubt would be accepted if they came from non-Muslims (a Swedish man who refused to shake hands with a female manager would probably be sued for discrimination himself, for instance).

You ignored what I mentioned earlier - Nalin Pekgul, a high-profile Swedish politician of Kurdish origin moved away from one of the Muslim-dominated areas because she didn't want her kids to grow up in that culture of religious fundamentalism. Was this because she was a racist who thinks her fellow Kurds should be gassed or at least get back where they belong? Or was she perhaps critical of a problem that native Swedes don't dare to bring up precisely because they fear the kind of accusations you've been hurling at me in this thread? You're asserting, from your position in Mexico, that there can be no such problems and that anyone who thinks so by definition must be a second coming of Hitler. I find that ludicrous and somewhat offensive.

[ag]

Blah.

1. Yes, I ignored that a certain politician moved away from a Muslim neighborhood, because I didn't find anything remarkable. I've also said several times that if an orthodox Jew is to come my way asking for help fleeing from his community, I'd be very supportive (and would, of course, believe that person is doing the right thing). Naturally, the same concerns any other poor soul stuck among the fundamentalists, be they Buddhist or Rastafarian.

However, no amount of Muslims choosing to break w/ their traditional lifestyle is going to mean anything: some people like rum, others prefer whisky. I am convinced, that whisky drinkers are masochist nuts, but I am not going to go around preaching the virtues of the sugar cane liquor. Though, of course, I will be verry happy if anyone converts to my Rumanist faith.

2. I don't find Islam any different from any other religion. Of course, in modern Sweden there are almost no real Christians left (nor there are any real Jews), whereas a few Muslims have migrated. They, most likely, will go through the normal process of aculturation into the dominant atheist culture. But even if they don't, I don't see what's the big deal: there are religious subcultures surviving all over the world.  I find them fascinating anthropological phenomena.
 
I don't ascribe your peculiar fascination w/ Islam to any inner character flaw - just to ignorance, frankly )) You've never really dealt w/ any other traditional religion, it seems.

3. The point is not whether you like or dislike Islam - I don't particularly care for it either. The point is, what is it, if anything, that you believe should be done about Muslim migrants. So far, I haven't seen anything, except for undefined grumbling.

[Хahar 🤔]

Anyway, as for the education system, sure there is a problem. Yet, not everyone fails in this system. The Iranians, Russians, Jews and Chinese to name some do just fine. Better than native Swedes, I believe.

You're confusing correlation with causation here. In North America, these problems are not faced by Muslim immigrants, who tend to be well-educated and affluent, but rather by Spanish-speaking immigrants, who do not.

No, I'm not. It would be impossible since I wasn't arguing causation. But thanks for trying!

It seems rather interesting that you would bring it up in this context, in that case.

[Boris]

3. The point is not whether you like or dislike Islam - I don't particularly care for it either. The point is, what is it, if anything, that you believe should be done about Muslim migrants. So far, I haven't seen anything, except for undefined grumbling.

What 'they' want is total assimilation - i.e. for immigrants (especially 2nd generation immigrants) to be virtually identical culturally to native Swedes. Except they aren't white.  Which is basically what has happened to East and South Asian immigrants in North America. The religion aspect is a bit trickier, since it requires Muslims to ignore the more unpleasant aspects of the Qu'ran (which many do anyway, but many also don't). Hinduism IMO is far more conducive to Western integration since it doesn't really stand for anything other than inoffensive "goodness" one could pick up from watching Star Wars or something and a few silly rituals. Or maybe it does stand for something and that "something" just doesn't manifest here in anytown USA/Canada since all its adherents are wealthy and educated and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Either way, nobody in the West seems to terribly care about non-Muslim East and South Asian immigrants and their descendants.

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I don't think such a 'normal process of aculturaton [sic]' really exists. But regardless, people should just be friendly, warm, kind, etc. and others should reciprocate. It's not terribly difficult so there's really no need to resort to this BNP-National Front-BZÖ silliness.

[ag]

Hinduism IMO is far more conducive to Western integration since it doesn't really stand for anything other than inoffensive "goodness" one could pick up from watching Star Wars or something and a few silly rituals. Or maybe it does stand for something and that "something" just doesn't manifest here in anytown USA/Canada since all its adherents are wealthy and educated and I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I guess, the last part of your statement is true. And this "something" does, indeed, manifest itself even in anytown US/Canada, believe me )

Political Hinduism in India is extremely aggressive, w/ a very strong fascist flavor (google RSS, as in Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh). Extremely anti-Christian, BTW. And, of course, integral to Hinduism is the caste division - extremely distasteful from almost any imaginable modern standpoint. We don't get as much exposure to lower-caste Hindus: they are often not educated enough to be mobile. Perhaps, the more egalitarian Islam is more propitious to lower strata migrating, accounting for greater exposure of the Westerners to the more difficult to deal with part of that society  - I wouldn't be surprized if it were true, though I haven't looked at numbers (hence the disclaimer).

BTW, the modern age of suicide bombing was also started by Hindus (in Sri Lanka).  It's just that it wasn't directed at the West and, at present, the Hindus overshadowed by the ostensible "Islamic threat". But it is exactly the case of "when they are done w/ them, they'll start w/ us", IMO.   

[Person Man]

[t]...at least no one has called anyone else or refered to anyone else as the "N-word" yet... [/t] ...or is that an Americanism? I think they are called "melanzana" or something like that in Italy?...and don't forget macaca!

[Gustaf]

Anyway, as for the education system, sure there is a problem. Yet, not everyone fails in this system. The Iranians, Russians, Jews and Chinese to name some do just fine. Better than native Swedes, I believe.

You're confusing correlation with causation here. In North America, these problems are not faced by Muslim immigrants, who tend to be well-educated and affluent, but rather by Spanish-speaking immigrants, who do not.

No, I'm not. It would be impossible since I wasn't arguing causation. But thanks for trying!

It seems rather interesting that you would bring it up in this context, in that case.

I guess that you, just like everyone else, didn't really bother to try and understand what I was arguing because you were busy trying to label me a racist. Ah, well.

My point is, at its simplest, that there are things that people dislike without being racist, like unemployment or crime or oppression of women. These things are associated by many people with Islam, which again isn't racist per se, since all these things are correlated with it here. Whether it is caused by Islam or really by something else isn't relevant to my point. I'm trying to find actual causes for why people are negative towards Islam, not saying that these reasons are necessarily good or justified.

[Gustaf]

Blah.

1. Yes, I ignored that a certain politician moved away from a Muslim neighborhood, because I didn't find anything remarkable. I've also said several times that if an orthodox Jew is to come my way asking for help fleeing from his community, I'd be very supportive (and would, of course, believe that person is doing the right thing). Naturally, the same concerns any other poor soul stuck among the fundamentalists, be they Buddhist or Rastafarian.

However, no amount of Muslims choosing to break w/ their traditional lifestyle is going to mean anything: some people like rum, others prefer whisky. I am convinced, that whisky drinkers are masochist nuts, but I am not going to go around preaching the virtues of the sugar cane liquor. Though, of course, I will be verry happy if anyone converts to my Rumanist faith.

2. I don't find Islam any different from any other religion. Of course, in modern Sweden there are almost no real Christians left (nor there are any real Jews), whereas a few Muslims have migrated. They, most likely, will go through the normal process of aculturation into the dominant atheist culture. But even if they don't, I don't see what's the big deal: there are religious subcultures surviving all over the world.  I find them fascinating anthropological phenomena.
 
I don't ascribe your peculiar fascination w/ Islam to any inner character flaw - just to ignorance, frankly )) You've never really dealt w/ any other traditional religion, it seems.

3. The point is not whether you like or dislike Islam - I don't particularly care for it either. The point is, what is it, if anything, that you believe should be done about Muslim migrants. So far, I haven't seen anything, except for undefined grumbling.

1. I don't view oppression of women as a question of taste best left to the individual. As I said before, if people want to wear funny hats or have red wedding dresses I couldn't care less. We seem to differ on that count. You don't mind other people subjugated to suffering as long as it doesn't come from the state and doesn't hurt you, whereas I do. You're entitled to the opinion, but it is hardly a question of racism.

2. I know plenty of religious people who are non-Muslims. But if you need to make up more things about me to fit into your pre-conceptions I can't stop you. I've no idea whether Islam is inherently different from Christianity, that's up to theologists to decide. The interpretation today is certainly different though. I also don't see where my fascination with Islam comes from. This is a thread about Islam, that wasn't started by me. But, again, your case seems to rest strangely on making wild assumptions on who I am without basis in my actual posts.

3. I honestly don't see how what I think should be done about Muslims is at all relevant to the discussion. It certainly has nothing to do with what I'm arguing, which is why I never brought it up. WHen you asked, I just wrote a long paragraph in reply where I stated that I didn't want to discriminate against them, throw them out or stop them from entering. If you need to define that as grumbling to maintain your position I suppose you can.

[Insula Dei]

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I actually agree with 90% of what you said there. It really is miserable to see how many people live in these kind of circumstances, but, while I accept that it'd make me look like some cliché caviar comrade from the '90s if I'd attribute all of these circumstances to society's ills, I do feel that that's where the state should kick in, not by banning these people from having a meaningfull experience of their religion but by actively supporting them. If you want to make sure muslim extremism doesn't become an issue you should, imo, make sure that those schools are functioning, that those people have acces to decent jobs, that these people do have an opportunity to learn the language, etc.

Oh, and as for the idea that Hinduism would be less likely to result in serious problems with immigrants, the only 'Honour killing' to have ever made the national media here in Belgium was of an Indian Hindu girl by her Indian Hindu father. So, I don't think you can argue that.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

I just discover this thread, and I skipped the novel since the half of page 2. Then I'll only comment about that link.

Well, far-rightist propaganda initiated by Marine Le Pen (FN) and still more far-rightist organizations like those that organize these 'Apéritifs Républicains' works till this forum then.

Well, in short, in Paris, there are places, especially one place, in which there is a quite important Muslim community, and this community hasn't a place to gather and pray, then yeah, they use a part of the street to do that, which blocks it during a little while. And yes, police let them do, and it works this way since a very long time, and this thing happening mainly in one part of one street in Paris (let's say a part of a maximum a 5 streets in Paris might be regularly blocked by those things), and which can be annoying during the time it lasts but had never been a big deal is suddenly blown all over more and more and presented as a symbol of the 'Islamazation of France'. You make me lol if you think France is on the way to Islamization, darlings.

Maybe it's just that Islam is the new target nowadays for Westerners, so it's more easy to use the slightest pointless thing and blow it up all over, and to think that guys who are clearly racist and coming from some parts of the worst far-right are suddenly heroes because they drink wine and eat pork in France. Yes, you make me lol.

France, might be one of the countries for which it's the hardest for Islam to express itself, since Muslim traditions can give some importance to the public sphere and the big principle for religion in France is that it stays the most possible in the private sphere, you will have to bring a lot of arguments on to show an 'Islamization of France', especially during the last years, during which Islam became less and less 'trendy' by non-Muslim French, which passed by for a example a law against burqah/niqab, but especially through speeches.

And yes, maybe the leaders of police are just smart here, maybe they know that this would be touchy to charge people during prayer, because of the international and national contexts about Islam, both contexts apparently feeding each other, and by the way, during the riots of youngs living in rough districts in France in 2005, the fire really took a big turn in the whole country when some teargas launched by police finished in a mosque during a prayer. So maybe they prefer keep quiet and not feeding more and more the fire for something that happens in one part of one street in Paris, at best less than 10 streets in the whole France maybe. Police has often been stupid here lately, they show they can still be smart, good. Or also, maybe because that's a complex small technical problem that can be solved without force.

Only risks of 'Islamization of France' that you will find here, it's amongst the already 'Islamized people', Muslims I mean, amongst which step by step, the fundie ideas grow, because those guys have been discriminated for decades now, the parents, the children of the parents, and the children of the children, always been rejected from the national community, and economical discrimination made that the big majority couldn't leave the social ghetto status and territory they are in, then more and more some are attracted by the power that can give them the fundie ideas, psychological power of this identity, and power they can have on their community, by trying to impose some fundie practices, but even here, that's only a trend and if some aspects of this trend like how the relationships between males and females can happen in those ghettos should really be taken into account, globally the large majority of the Muslim population here seems to remain 'classical' and not into extremism at all. And that's, as I just said, anyhow only happen into social ghettos about which France didn't care for a lot of time, so you can wonder whether those part of the territory are still, part of the territory. Some guys apparently decided to seize it anyways. In short they tell you here that this is their district, with their laws, all of this in a mix of gangsta spirit and admiration for 'mudjahidins'.

The biggest danger of 'Islamization' would be then for Muslims themselves, in the same way that by far the 1st victims of 'Islamic terrorism' (huge oxymoron) are in Muslim countries, but as always we have people in West blowing things up over and over...

[Gustaf]

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I actually agree with 90% of what you said there. It really is miserable to see how many people live in these kind of circumstances, but, while I accept that it'd make me look like some cliché caviar comrade from the '90s if I'd attribute all of these circumstances to society's ills, I do feel that that's where the state should kick in, not by banning these people from having a meaningfull experience of their religion but by actively supporting them. If you want to make sure muslim extremism doesn't become an issue you should, imo, make sure that those schools are functioning, that those people have[] acces to decent jobs, that these people do have an opportunity to learn the language, etc.

Oh, and as for the idea that Hinduism would be less likely to result in serious problems with immigrants, the only 'Honour killing' to have ever made the national media here in Belgium was of an Indian Hindu girl by her Indian Hindu father. So, I don't think you can argue that.

I never said that people should be banned from experiencing their religion. I'm not even sure what that would entail. And I don't think I said Hinduism would lead to no honour killings. That would be silly of me since the oppression of women in India is a classic. I even read a novel about it called Women on a Train or something like that. Although, I have read (in school, so I can't vouch for its veracity) that much of this view on women in India was brought in by the Muslim invasion.

Regardless, I'm not seeing any of that being really relevant to my case...