Guns cost more lives than they save

[Beet]

Some years ago, I reported on a self-defense/gun-safety class mainly for women at Rice University. There had been several forcible rapes on the Houston campus. Students had armed themselves. The instructor was an Army ROTC officer. A Vietnam combat veteran, he found the prospect of undergraduates packing heat unsettling, but reasoned that if they were arming themselves anyway, some training was better than none.

Unlike many entrepreneurs teaching "concealed carry" classes from sea to shining sea, he urged students to leave their guns at home. He stressed that he couldn't turn them into infantry soldiers with a few sessions in a gym basement. Even most armed assailants, he explained, aren't hell bent upon murder. They use weapons to control their victims.

Anybody pulling a gun must shoot to kill without hesitation. The soldier reasoned that most Rice students simply weren't prepared to do that. Hence the likeliest outcome was that criminals would end up murdering them with their own guns. Heightened awareness, avoiding lonely places at night, and pepper spray or mace would afford more safety than the illusion of power conveyed by a 9mm semi-automatic.

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/01/26/gun_control/index.html

[SvenssonRS]

I just need to point out just how incredibly worthless pepper spray or mace would be in the face of an assailant with a gun, and yes, I seriously believe that a vast majority of criminals - rapists especially - are entirely willing to use what they carry. Certainly, some might use a gun for control, but I'm of the belief that, no matter what anyone says about it, most are pretty well perfectly willing to use one for what it was designed for. I suppose, yes, there are other ways of self-defense, but most of them require just as much training as guns do, as far as I know.

Sorry, but I just have a serious problem believing that most of the criminals won't just point-blank shoot anyone who pepper sprays or maces them.

[tpfkaw]

Wow, way to totally not offer any evidence at all for your position!

[SvenssonRS]

Wow, way to totally not offer any evidence at all for your position!

I'm guessing that was for Beet.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I just need to point out just how incredibly worthless pepper spray or mace would be in the face of an assailant with a gun, and yes, I seriously believe that a vast majority of criminals - rapists especially - are entirely willing to use what they carry. Certainly, some might use a gun for control, but I'm of the belief that, no matter what anyone says about it, most are pretty well perfectly willing to use one for what it was designed for. I suppose, yes, there are other ways of self-defense, but most of them require just as much training as guns do, as far as I know.

Sorry, but I just have a serious problem believing that most of the criminals won't just point-blank shoot anyone who pepper sprays or maces them.

     Even if most criminals aren't willing to shoot their victims point-blank, it's highly foolish to assume that they won't. Getting shot dead because you were attacked by one of the ones who had no qualms about using a gun is a rather undesirable outcome.

[opebo]

It is kind of funny to read a discussion of what people are 'prepared to do' regarding homicide by gun (or any other means).  I do suspect that very few criminals and even fewer 'non-criminals' have any real idea what they are 'prepared to do' in such a situation.  Most shootings no doubt happen, regardess of who is pulling the trigger, in a state of complete panic, emotion, and irrationality (that or rage when you're killing your loved one, which is far more common).

[fezzyfestoon]

It is kind of funny to read a discussion of what people are 'prepared to do' regarding homicide by gun (or any other means).  I do suspect that very few criminals and even fewer 'non-criminals' have any real idea what they are 'prepared to do' in such a situation.  Most shootings no doubt happen, regardess of who is pulling the trigger, in a state of complete panic, emotion, and irrationality (that or rage when you're killing your loved one, which is far more common).

This is particularly true.  There is a massive percentage of murders committed by people the victims knew.  Random murders are not all that common and to prepare for something that unlikely is a bit extreme, especially when preparing for that puts others at more risk for a deadly accident.  Unless you make regular visits to hot beds for gang related violence or drug related violence (often the same thing) it's like preparing for a deadly hailstorm by carrying a metal umbrella with you everywhere you go.  The more guns that are out there, the more dangerous things become essentially.  Like opebo said, we don't really know what we're capable of in a crisis situation until it happens.  That's why I'd much rather trust a trained professional with that than a random citizen on the street.  And I wouldn't worry about response times considering a massive majority of violent crimes are committed in high density areas with larger police forces.  Look at the crime rates in NYC, the police forced it down drastically, not people with guns.  It's also worth noting that gang and drug related violence is highly concentrated in these areas, making it unlikely even there that you'd be faced with a situation of self defense where a gun is necessary.

Beyond the practicality of the issue, I personally don't understand the desire to have more guns floating around on the street.  Wouldn't it be more appealing to everyone for there to be fewer people around with the ability to shoot them?  When I know there are people around me holding guns, it definitely does not make me more comfortable.  I wasn't even comfortable when there were police officers with gigantic guns around the city after 9/11.  I'm just infinitely curious as to why people so fervently desire free access to guns.

[Beet]

Wow, way to totally not offer any evidence at all for your position!

I'm guessing that was for Beet.

Says the person who didn't offer any evidence for their position. And yes, I am sure that most rapists are acquaintance rapes who are not armed with anything, and the victim would not want to shoot them anyway. Hence in the vast majority of cases, pepper spray or mace would be far more effective.

A gun would be totally ineffective because let's face it, how many women know that a guy is going to rape them when the guy is 20 feet away? That is totally absurd. Even in the small minority of cases where women are attacked by a complete stranger on the street, they are faced with close quarters where the assailant with greater physical strength could easily wrest away a gun. And then, now the assailant has the gun and could shoot the victim dead. Getting raped is bad enough, but getting raped and killed is far worse.