France 2012: the official thread

[Gustaf]

The form of fascism represented by Le Pen has always been stronger in Europe than in the US. There's a reason, after all, for why Hitler was European.

This is especially striking, imo, once you consider that the racism of the US was a product of having a huge black slave population for a long time. Give us in Europe the tiniest number of Jews or Muslims and the torches come out.

[Gustaf]

I do love the crazy mess which is French politics.

Is the primary what actually decides the candidate? Or are there other elements involved? And if the former, will it be like other French elections with a run-off?

[Gustaf]

I do love the crazy mess which is French politics.

Is the primary what actually decides the candidate? Or are there other elements involved? And if the former, will it be like other French elections with a run-off?

Yeah, the PS primary will decide the candidate. It will be a primary with run-off if no candidate gets over 50%. The Greenies will hold a primary well, maybe a Joly-Hulot fight if she stays in and maybe Yves Cochet who has interest in running. The FG will choose in Politburo and then the choice will be ratified. The UMP has no primaries.

Interesting. So in the UMP it's internal power politics that decides or what?

What are the polls saying about the PS primary run-off then? I presume DSK wins?

[Gustaf]

The idea that people are too rational to do stupid stuff when running for office has never been correct. Look at John Edwards, Tiger Woods, Richard Nixon and so on and so forth.

But I suppose it might be French customs not really mixing with American.

[Gustaf]

The idea that people are too rational to do stupid stuff when running for office has never been correct. Look at John Edwards, Tiger Woods, Richard Nixon and so on and so forth.

But I suppose it might be French customs not really mixing with American.

As deplorable as John Edwards is, he never raped anyone.  I mean, as Chris Rock once said, rape is number 2 on the scale of bad things.  There's murder, then there's rape.  This isn't a standard scandal at all...outside of Moshe Katsav, I can't name a prominent politician this past decade brought up on rape charges (one of you will prove me wrong).

That's irrelevant as regards questions of intelligence though.

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

As the saying goes, a lady who says no means maybe, a lady who says maybe means yes and a lady who says yes isn't a lady. I'm sure our charming resident sexists can add on similar ideas.

My high school French teacher worked as an au pair in France and the dad of that family tried to force himself on her. It was no biggie in his eyes.

(and, I can mention Zuma to prove you wrong)

[Gustaf]

The idea that people are too rational to do stupid stuff when running for office has never been correct. Look at John Edwards, Tiger Woods, Richard Nixon and so on and so forth.

But I suppose it might be French customs not really mixing with American.

As deplorable as John Edwards is, he never raped anyone.  I mean, as Chris Rock once said, rape is number 2 on the scale of bad things.  There's murder, then there's rape.  This isn't a standard scandal at all...outside of Moshe Katsav, I can't name a prominent politician this past decade brought up on rape charges (one of you will prove me wrong).

That's irrelevant as regards questions of intelligence though.

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

As the saying goes, a lady who says no means maybe, a lady who says maybe means yes and a lady who says yes isn't a lady. I'm sure our charming resident sexists can add on similar ideas.

My high school French teacher worked as an au pair in France and the dad of that family tried to force himself on her. It was no biggie in his eyes.

(and, I can mention Zuma to prove you wrong)

WTF are you talking about? Rape is rape, period. We aren't talking here about an Arab seikh or an African king where the cultures about the role of woman are vastly different.
We are talking about a French politician, who already had trouble in the past with sexual scandals, so he could hardly consider himself above suspicion.

You don't think there is a difference in the role of a woman between different "Western" countries? As a Swede, I can assure you there is.

I mean, I think this act (as described in the media) is rape, but I'm not a powerful man from a sexist culture. We have several wonderful posters here with views on rape that are, well, different from mine.

[Gustaf]

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

As the saying goes, a lady who says no means maybe, a lady who says maybe means yes and a lady who says yes isn't a lady. I'm sure our charming resident sexists can add on similar ideas.

My high school French teacher worked as an au pair in France and the dad of that family tried to force himself on her. It was no biggie in his eyes.

(and, I can mention Zuma to prove you wrong)

Thank you Gustaf for providing your usual stereotypes. And no, your now famous French teacher isn't an evidence of anything.

If you're interested in discussing about facts, let us know.

Thank you Antonio for providing your usual arrogant stupidity.

If you're interested in a civil and intelligent discourse, let me know.

[Gustaf]

Sorry if I don't apreciate people who deem an entire people sexist because of a few things he heard. You have no clue what the heck you are talking about, but you say it as if it were an evidence. This is called bigotry, and I find it interesting it comes from someone who usually points out bigotry in everybody.

I must have missed the part where I called an entire people sexist. A country having a sexist culture isn't the same as everyone in it being sexist. I would have thought that rather obvious.

And while I realize you may be blind to it, being French and all, France is known to be a pretty sexist nation. Not as bad as most non-industrialized nations of course, but still.

[Gustaf]

Sorry if I don't apreciate people who deem an entire people sexist because of a few things he heard. You have no clue what the heck you are talking about, but you say it as if it were an evidence. This is called bigotry, and I find it interesting it comes from someone who usually points out bigotry in everybody.

ikr, surely it wasn't the perpetrator's fault...let's imply it was more the victim's fault and craft this up to be one huge misunderstanding in cultural relativism.

I hope you're not implying that that is what I'm implying. Because it isn't.

[Gustaf]

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I don't think that saying is condoning rape; it's just describing how social interaction generally works.

For rapists, maybe.

No, but, seriously it's an extremely sexist attitude obviously. And its logical conclusion is the occasional rape.

[Gustaf]

Sorry if I don't apreciate people who deem an entire people sexist because of a few things he heard. You have no clue what the heck you are talking about, but you say it as if it were an evidence. This is called bigotry, and I find it interesting it comes from someone who usually points out bigotry in everybody.

I must have missed the part where I called an entire people sexist. A country having a sexist culture isn't the same as everyone in it being sexist. I would have thought that rather obvious.

And while I realize you may be blind to it, being French and all, France is known to be a pretty sexist nation. Not as bad as most non-industrialized nations of course, but still.

Wow. Must I remember you a thread about Israel where I was in the same situation than you? You can't condemn me and trying to defend you from the same thing at the same time.

Well, DSK is probably out of the race, which is good, since IMF ran neo-liberal politics. French left doesn't need to be a soft copy of the right.

You said that "an Israeli" will always spin things in favour of the Israeli government and then went on to argue that Israelis were guilty of the actions of their government. It was blatantly anti-semitic and rather disgusting.

I never claimed all French people were sexist. That would be pretty ridiculous. I was making a sarcastic remark on sexism in general and in sexist cultures in particular.

[Gustaf]

NYPD now changing its version...

Could he be acquitted before the deadline for primary candidacies ? Of course I know the chances are tiny, but I need to believe in it.

I must have missed the part where I called an entire people sexist. A country having a sexist culture isn't the same as everyone in it being sexist. I would have thought that rather obvious.

And while I realize you may be blind to it, being French and all, France is known to be a pretty sexist nation. Not as bad as most non-industrialized nations of course, but still.

That sounds pretty much like I've nothing against Arabs as people, but... you know, their culture bla bla. You strike me as a guy who knows nothing about a place and still makes bold statements like this :

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

You are judging a guy you know nothing about, based only upon the fact he is French. Classy.

Where did I judge anyone? And how is a statement with a "might" in it bold in any way?

My post was mostly a joke - which should have been pretty clear from the wording. The main point was that powerful men, especially in sexist cultures, tend to feel a sense of entitlement to women. This is a fairly common occurrence and obviously doesn't get reported in most cases.

France is a culture well-known for that attitude, so I thought DSK living up to the stereotype was amusing. I read an essay in Sweden's biggest newspaper just the other day from a woman about how unnerving it was to walk the streets of Paris because of the different attitude towards women there. 

Of course, most cultures are sexist to some degree and many worse than France.

What I'm not sure of is exactly where you disagree with me. You've insinuated that I'm racist and not knowledgeable enough on France but that seems a bit irrelevant.

Do you disagree that powerful male politicians are often sexist and that this is more prevalent in sexist cultures and that France is a fairly sexist culture?

[Gustaf]

What I'm not sure of is exactly where you disagree with me. You've insinuated that I'm racist and not knowledgeable enough on France but that seems a bit irrelevant.

Do you disagree that powerful male politicians are often sexist and that this is more prevalent in sexist cultures and that France is a fairly sexist culture?

I've insinuated that you are prejudiced, and I still think you are.

So to put it clearly :
- I've no idea if "powerful male politicians" tend to be sexist. Overall, a fair number of them probably are. That's still not a reason to call a sexist someone you know nothing about.
- France has a fairly sexist culture ? I've no idea. That's not what I've perceived (and sexism is one of the things that I can't bear, believe me if you want), but I probably lack elements of comparison. The question is : what the hell you exactly know about French culture ? As far as I know, your bold statements seem to be based only on your French teacher and on swedish media. You might be right, but the way you say it makes it ridiculous.

I haven't called any specific person sexist. What I said was that if he turns out to be guilty it would fit a fairly common pattern and thus would not be particularly surprising (in response to people apparently thinking it unbelievable). I don't think that it's very controversial to called the alleged act an indication of sexism.

Sure, my evidence of France being sexist is anecdotal - it's based on personal experiences of people I know, several stories I've seen in the media, the behaviour of many French politicians and the popular reactions to them and so on. Just look at the Polanski case, for example. But what else would it be? You're still to offer any sort of evidence to the contrary or even outright saying that you disagree.

I think that if you want to call me a bigoted idiot for having an opinion you might want to explain why you think I'm wrong.

[Gustaf]

Oh, and the Guardian seems to agree with me:  "How many senior male French politicians aren't either a groper, a cheater, a charmer or a serial seducer? And it goes right to the top of the political class," sighed one news editor. "France is still a kind of monarchy that kept the aristocratic morals of the 18th century. The lord of the manor has a right to the women; the king has his mistresses."

[Gustaf]

Actually the 'serial seducer' thing isn't necessarily sexist, it's just not in line with the ideal  heterosexual (though nowadays homosexual goes as well) , monogamous relationship as preached by bourgeois morality. It's certainly not something I frown upon.

On the whole France doesn't strike me as very 'sexist'. It's certainly less so than Italy or Spain. On the whole France is pretty much your archetypical Western European (Contintal) Liberal Democracy. (From now on I'll refer to these nations as WELDs)

I was more focused on women being afraid of being alone with him or the whole lord of the manor thing.

I'm not big on feminism or structuralist analyses but the patterns of "serial seducing" in this context is clearly an expression of sexism.

But I'll agree that Italy is certainly more sexist. But it is, on the other hand, a pretty extreme case.

[Gustaf]

I'd argue that calling "serial seducers" sexist is the actual sexism in this case. You act like the women they seduce are brainless/defenseless and can't think for themselves... "won't someone step in and protect these dumb little girls from the mean old men tricking them into sex!" As long as everyone involved is consenting to whatever is happening, you really can't lump "seducers" or "charmers" in with "gropers" and "rapists."

Obviously French society doesn't see a huge problem with not sticking to the traditional puritanical conception of monogamy. That doesn't mean they're all rapists and misogynists.

Lol. Calling the nineteenth century slave trade racist is the real racism. You act like the black people enslaved were defenseless and needed protection against the powerful white people. There were white slaves too, you know.

PS: the article lumped the terms together, not me. Presumably because the distinction is very fine in a sexist society.

It would rather seem that French society doesn't see a huge problem with sticking to the traditional concept of women not having much of a right to their own body. You could always look up when women got the right to vote there. Anyway, I still haven't called all French misogynist rapists. But just like the article in the Guardian (and a big article in Sweden's leading morning paper today) argue there seem to be a culture of it being all right for powerful men to use and abuse women. That allows misogynist rapists to get away with it more easily.

[Gustaf]

Nobody so far has pointed out the horrendous brutality of the way he was treated by the American authorities. A person who is presumed innocent shouldn't be exposed to the media the way he has been. He has the right, as any other person, to privacy.

Of course, for all the media throughout the world, he is already guilty. The American public is ready to lynch him and its elected (what a failure !) judicial officers are following it. It is clear that everybody is jumping on this occasion to humiliate a man because he is rich, "powerful", and maybe also because he is French.

French culture might have its defects, but there is also somehting wrong in the American one.

For French-speakers, listen to Bernard-Henri Lévy and Robert Badinter on France inter. http://sites.radiofrance.fr/franceinter/ev/fiche.php?ev_id=1762

Are you calling all Americans defective now? What bigotry!

And I can't say I'm seeing much "horrendous brutality". Of course, if one is used to living the life of the noblesse oblige with the taxpayers picking up the tab a prison cell is going to seem like an insult, but equality before the law applies even to famous people.

[Gustaf]

Maybe, but it's still something extremely humiliating to do to someone who is still presumed innocent. In France, it is actually illegal, fortunately.

That is exactly what I meant by a 'cultural disconnect'. The American legal system and its traditions happens to be very, very different from the French legal system; these differences are just that (differences and traditions) rather than a calculated snub of any kind.

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Bail? Because obvious flight risk is obvious.

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Isn't that the point of equality before the law?

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Don't understand this position; could you elaborate?

I think he's saying that famous people have more right to integrity than non-famous people because they stand to lose so much more - membership at the country club, annual invitation to grand balls and so on.

[Gustaf]

I think he's saying that famous people have more right to integrity than non-famous people because they stand to lose so much more - membership at the country club, annual invitation to grand balls and so on.

The sad thing is that you seem to be serious... Since you are so sure about the moral superiority of your position, why do you even bother responding to the obnoxious people who disagree with you ?

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Might be that, yes. It doesn't make it any more legitimate to me.

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That's a good one. He was as likely to flee as I am to become the Pope. And anyways the authorities had all the means to keep him under control. This has been done for only two possible reasons : for the sake of humiliating an evil powerful bastard or for that of showing to the public how the justice doesn't make any favor to an evil powerful bastard. In any case, it goes against justice and decency.

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Except that this isn't equality before the law. Because he is famous, the impact of his being publicly shown handcuffed has nothing to do with what it would be for a random guy. The mediatic impact changes everything. A random guy accused of rape attempt doesn't get dozens of cameras filming him, doesn't get his face portrayed in every newspaper, doesn't get publicly lynched like DSK was. In order to ensure equality, yes, some more discretion is needed. That's something pretty evident to see.

That's an easy question - since I am so sure about the moral superiority of my position I try to convince others of it. On a lot of issues I don't think my position is necessarily any better than anyone else's and then I usually keep my opinion to myself. Why would I bother anyone with an argument if I didn't think it was superior (or at least interesting).

And I'd say the sad thing is that you seem to be serious - poor, poor DSK who will have to briefly leave his $3000 suites and international top meetings.

It's really amazing how the left can throw all their principles and ideals over board when it comes to worshiping aristocratic leaders.

[Gustaf]

That's an easy question - since I am so sure about the moral superiority of my position I try to convince others of it. On a lot of issues I don't think my position is necessarily any better than anyone else's and then I usually keep my opinion to myself. Why would I bother anyone with an argument if I didn't think it was superior (or at least interesting).

There is a difference between genuinely believing you are right and treating anybody who disagrees with you as if he were Opebo (yes, because I've the impression that you can't abandon your obsession for one second).
 

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Poor DSK will be loathed by the entire world for something that might very well be false. Even if proven 100% innocent, his image will still be damaged for no reason. Poor DSK will have to abandon the IMF where he was doing an amazing job, and poor DSK just went from the status of favorite as next French President to the status of official asshole.
I know you are not one of those evil depraved rich bastards and that you are infinitely superior to him, but just try for one second to imagine how you would feel if you were him and were innocent.
 

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Please tell me what "principles and ideals" I've betrayed. And no, hating rich people has never been a left-wing principle.

You're turning into a complete mess now. Let's go over your "points" one by one.

1. How am I treating you badly? I was making a general statement, unrelated to any poster on here, and you immediately jumped on me with ad hominem attacks. At this point they're becoming rather bizarre. How is Opebo related to this?

2. Ok, first off, I think we can say with some certainty that he's a sexist bastard, regardless of how this case turns out. Have you read about the several cases that have already emerged? He apparently has quite the reputation for sexual harassment. Secondly, drugging and then anally raping a 14-year old girl didn't make Roman Polanski unpopular in France. Your government took him in and defended him vigorously. In fact, you're defending DSK right now.

3. I mean principles such as thinking that rich people should have to follow the same laws as everyone else. Principles such as respecting the individual rights of the downtrodden in society, like cleaning women. See, thinking rich people shouldn't get special VIP suites in prison isn't "hating rich people". But you don't seem to be very good at grasping nuances. Or controlling your temper, for that matter.

I will also note that I never claimed to know that he was guilty, while you keep arguing his innocence. Furthermore, I seem to be in agreement with newspapers and posters from all over the world, whereas the only people thinking DSK is being horribly treated seem to be...you and other Frenchmen. Does this indicate that the entire world is biased or that France is biased, in your opinion?

[Gustaf]

Look, if you want to be treated with respect you don't start a discussion with me the way you did. Why should I show you any respect when you attack me personally without offering anything resembling an argument? I only give people respect if I think they deserve it and you're not doing very well so far.

So, you think that journalist who said 4 years ago, on tv, that he, during an interview, ripped her clothes off and struggled with her on the floor until she kicked him away was also lying? Of course, the ever so objective French media edited out his name. And when it is mentioned on the show no one seems to consider it a big deal. It seems to be more of a funny anecdote. But that could be my prejudices again, I suppose. And the MP who says she was afraid of being in the same room as him, was she also lying?

You're claiming that he's a poor innocent man who will have a destroyed reputation. But it is at this stage extremely unlikely that he isn't a pretty sexist bastard, even if he didn't rape this girl (or if it cannot be proven because his money can hire good enough lawyers). So I can't muster up enormous wells of sympathy for a man who has obviously a pretty warped view of women.

It is also notable that your surprise at this incident seems to be more because French media doesn't report when powerful people misbehave than because it is so out of character. This has been a recurring theme with many French politicians in the past as well. Which makes it funny that you think everyone but French media is being biased - your track record on cases like this isn't that good, I'm afraid.

Furthermore, it's great that you know Polanski wouldn't have any support. It's still a fact that your government supported him and did so enthusiastically. I'm sure DSK could not get elected if he turned out to be guilty but I doubt his life would be ruined. I guess he would have to content himself with driving around in his Porsche, harassing women and drinking fine wine. I'm afraid I will reserve most of my sympathy for people more deserving of it (say starving kids in Darfur).

Your point on famous people having a hard time is quite ridiculous. If I were arrested and publicly named for rape don't you think everyone I knew would know? Don't you think my social life would be destroyed? My professional career? Your contention here is absolutely bizarre. Perhaps you're unaware that this happens to everyone in the US, not just famous people.

And, of course, I never said you said rich people should be getting VIP treatment in prison. I said that I didn't think so and that it hardly means hating rich people.

Finally, you said:

Updated the numbers : all works, except last week's Aubry, which now lacks 0.1 points.


That's looking bleaker and bleaker. I still think he is innocent, and the justice will recognize it. But the voters never will... But honestly, part of myself wishes he is guilty, because if he isn't what's happening to him (and to France) is really horrible.

LOL@ Bernard Debré, what a bastard.

My emphasis. So I think my characterization of you "arguing his innocence" was rather correct. It's a bit bizarre that you attack me for putting word in your mouth when those words are not words I ever said...

You claimed that I was a bigot brainwashed by my biased newspaper. I'm just asking what is more likely, given the fact that so many people, journalists and posters seem to be in agreement with me? I'm also hinting, gently, that now that my original statement has been backed up by some of the world's leading newspapers your contention that I was showing my bigoted ignorance and reliance on anecdotal evidence might warrant an apology. You were obviously having an emotional reaction and had no idea what you were talking about, while I was making a rather uncontroversial point.

See, next time someone joins most people in the world on an issue and disagrees with you, it might be a good idea not to reply by telling them they're an idiot. Just as a little tip.

[Gustaf]

I'd argue that calling "serial seducers" sexist is the actual sexism in this case. You act like the women they seduce are brainless/defenseless and can't think for themselves... "won't someone step in and protect these dumb little girls from the mean old men tricking them into sex!" As long as everyone involved is consenting to whatever is happening, you really can't lump "seducers" or "charmers" in with "gropers" and "rapists."

Obviously French society doesn't see a huge problem with not sticking to the traditional puritanical conception of monogamy. That doesn't mean they're all rapists and misogynists.

Precisely.  You've just elucidated perfectly why Gustaf is the sexist on this forum, not I.

So, do you think wanting to give poor people protection through a generous dole is condescending and classist?

[Gustaf]

So, do you think wanting to give poor people protection through a generous dole is condescending and classist?

It may be, but that doesn't bother me in the least, Gustaf.

Ah, so you're playing your hypocrite game as usual. If you don't care about respecting either women or poor people, why not be open and honest about it? Why the little charade about trying to call me sexist?

PS: I of course have no problem with women sleeping around with different men or anything like that. That was just Lief not bothering to understand me.

[Gustaf]

And anyways, as I've said, the police still could easily keep him under control outside of jail. Assigning him a residence should have been enough.

I don't understand why they would do this. Certainly they wouldn't give any other rape suspect a house to live in.

But Xahar, we're talking about a famous politician who drives a Porsche here. Being in jail isn't the same for him as it would be for us normal people. It's much more humiliating and degrading. In fact, even punishing such as great man would be a travesty of justice.

[Gustaf]

Nicolas Sarkozy of all people had to warn DSK before becoming IMF chief that people outside France don't tolerate perverts, indicating that it would bring shame on the nation.

Even if there was no actual rape, the maid wouldn't bring these kind of charges unless he was attempting to invoke his, um... 'natural rights as a Frenchman' upon her in some way.  Not unless there was some kind of sinister conspiracy against him from the start.

It seems to me that his reaction throughout the whole thing would have been different if it was all a big lie and conspiracy.