IDS Budget and Tax Committee

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Since we have just created his body, I think it's only proper that a thread be created for it. The Emperor & Imperial Speaker shall be co-chairs, but any elected regional official may take a seat (up to five total). Furthermore, any citizen of the region is welcome to aid in the process.

     The purpose of this committee is to ascertain the region's current tax rates & expenditures, so as to formulate a budget for the region. At the beginning of the next legislative session in late March, we will have to decide on whether or not to keep this as a permanent entity in the regional government.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am fine with that proposal. Actually, I think I might make one post at the beginning of each week & edit it to include any new findings as the week progresses. That should be a good way to keep my thoughts organized.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am fine with that proposal. Actually, I think I might make one post at the beginning of each week & edit it to include any new findings as the week progresses. That should be a good way to keep my thoughts organized.

Sounds great.

I was looking through wiki and, unless I read it wrong, the only laws cataloged are initiatives.  I realize this is probably outside the scope of this committee but, if that's correct, something must be done to update it.

     Indeed, not a single law has been catalogued since the creation of the Legislature. I have a lot to do this weekend, but I'll try to get at least a couple of laws up on the Wiki.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am fine with that proposal. Actually, I think I might make one post at the beginning of each week & edit it to include any new findings as the week progresses. That should be a good way to keep my thoughts organized.

Sounds great.

I was looking through wiki and, unless I read it wrong, the only laws cataloged are initiatives.  I realize this is probably outside the scope of this committee but, if that's correct, something must be done to update it.

     Indeed, not a single law has been catalogued since the creation of the Legislature. I have a lot to do this weekend, but I'll try to get at least a couple of laws up on the Wiki.

Sounds good.  Do you, by any chance, know where to find the old legislative threads?  Search didn't turn up anything.

     Prior to the creation of the Imperial Legislature, except for a universal legislature that briefly existed in 2006, all laws were passed by referendum. You should be able to find all of the old voting booths looking on the Voting Booth board.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Alright, I'll look through the initiatives later today. I plan on getting a bunch of bills up tonight, so looking for any taxation provisions in the initiatives shouldn't be a problem.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Section 6 of the Southeast Lottery Regulations, adopted on November 5, 2004, as amended by the Expanding Choice Initiative, passed on July 18, 2005:

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     Sections 3-6 of the Excise Tax Administration Initiative, passed on January 24, 2005:

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     Not sure yet what relevance this has, if any, since I am not aware of any excises with program funds passed in the region. I guess I will find out soon, though.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Also, when it comes to our baseline tax revenue, should it be based off the actual total population of the United States southeast or should be use a mathematical equation based on our in-game population to arrive at that total?

     For the stimulus bills, I came up with apportionment figures for the states based on the assumption that their populations were the same as in real life. As such, for the sake of consistency, I think we should use the actual populations of these states.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Also, when it comes to our baseline tax revenue, should it be based off the actual total population of the United States southeast or should be use a mathematical equation based on our in-game population to arrive at that total?

     For the stimulus bills, I came up with apportionment figures for the states based on the assumption that their populations were the same as in real life. As such, for the sake of consistency, I think we should use the actual populations of these states.

Sounds good.  I was thinking, if this is just a one-time thing it will be a complete waste.  Once we have our budget, tax, and debt figures, we should maintain them.  Thus, I propose we eventually repeal the law that the repealed the Regional Budget Creation Initiative (or preferably write our own).  The budget could (and should) be based off the previous years so we don't have to write up a new one and can be compiled by the Attorney General and Governor and then ratified by the Legislature.

     I do agree that maintaining a regional budget would be a good idea, though I don't like the original initiative. Rather than repealing its repeal, I'd suggest an altogether new bill in its vein. We don't have a statute-as-amended, recall.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Southeast Alcohol Initiative, Section 8, as passed on February 21, 2005:

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     Southeast Tobacco Initiative, Section 6, as passed on February 21, 2005:

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     Southeast Nuclear Energy Initiative, Chapter 4, as passed on February 21, 2005:

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     Southeast Biomass Initiative, Section 3, as passed on February 21, 2005:

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     Transportation Commission Initiative, Chapter 2, Sections 14 & 15, & Chapter 3, Section 22, as passed on March 21, 2005:

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     Fair Consequences Initiative, Section 3, as passed on July 18, 2005:

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     Safe Roads Initiative, Section 6, as passed on July 18, 2005:

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     That covers the first 50 initiatives. Some of them imposed fines on various crimes or carried various unenumerated economic implications. I don't think any of them would have a substantial effect on the regional budget though, so I generally neglected them. Once we've completed the main project, it might be a good idea to go back & estimate the little details.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Let me offer some general ideas for a framework based on what the Mideast has done. I emphasize "general" and "framework" as the IDS will characteristically do its own thing.

Check out the links in the following posts in the budget thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2756417#msg2756417
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2769048#msg2769048
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2774577#msg2774577
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789445#msg2789445
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789731#msg2789731

The benefit here is it allows comparison to real life for several broad spending and taxing categories. The structure makes it relatively simple to assess the results of taxing and spending decisions based on RL comparison. The actual taxing and spending levels within that framework are 100% your own.

Thoughts?

Phew!

That's a lot.  A very good suggestion but it will take some work.  Looking down that list, I noticed categories that the SE has never past spending bills related to.  Should we assume that we were spending in these categories during the past few years or not?  If we don't, we will have an unrealistically large surplus without any of the negatives associated with not spending any money in some of the categories.  However, that seems like a bit of a realism killer.

I would take it that you are spending whatever levels you determine you're spending, regardless of past legislation or lack thereof. In other words, treat this as "year one" for determining how much is being spent in these various categories. However faithful you want to be to prior legislation is up to you guys (and commendable), but don't let the fact the IDS (e.g.) never passed a budget for police and prisons (other than the free range one ) stop you all from deciding to appropriate 'X' Billion towards police and prisons. Unless you guys insist otherwise the GM is willing to give a mulligan on prior spending in this category.

That said, I will base the relative level of services provided through a comparison of real life expenditures to whatever you guys appropriate. In other words if RL expenditures for "protection" in the 10 states comprising the IDS are $10 Billion, but the IDS only appropriates $5 Billion, that means the IDS will have to prepare a plan for dealing with half the prisons, guards, parole officers, and state troopers the real world south deals with, and/or suffer whatever ramifications the GM determines would arise from such funding levels.

With that in mind, PiT, I assure you with this economy the LAST thing you guys will have to deal with is "large surpluses".

     Now is not the greatest time to do the budget if you want to get a rosy picture of things, but it is still good to get it done.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am quite certain that Clause 4, Sub-clause B is a valid part of the 2010 Federal Stimulus Act. Did you make sure to check under Section 2, Sub-section e?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Sections 6 & 7 of the Expanding Choice Initiative, as passed on July 18, 2005:

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     The School Choice Initiative, as passed on November 21, 2005:

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     Sections 1 & 2 of the Public Assistance in Abortion Ban Initiative, as passed on November 21, 2005:

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     That's it for the first 100 initiatives. For some reason there were very few appropriations in this batch.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     2.e.4.B is this:

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[Associate Justice PiT]

     There shouldn't be a 2.a.10 in the bill. For reference, this is the bill.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am fine with that proposal. Actually, I think I might make one post at the beginning of each week & edit it to include any new findings as the week progresses. That should be a good way to keep my thoughts organized.

Sounds great.

I was looking through wiki and, unless I read it wrong, the only laws cataloged are initiatives.  I realize this is probably outside the scope of this committee but, if that's correct, something must be done to update it.

     Indeed, not a single law has been catalogued since the creation of the Legislature. I have a lot to do this weekend, but I'll try to get at least a couple of laws up on the Wiki.

Sounds good.  Do you, by any chance, know where to find the old legislative threads?  Search didn't turn up anything.

     Prior to the creation of the Imperial Legislature, except for a universal legislature that briefly existed in 2006, all laws were passed by referendum. You should be able to find all of the old voting booths looking on the Voting Booth board.

I made an effort to add initiatives and links to the voting booths somewhere in the wiki. I'll see if I can find it.

This page contains links to most elections, though is missing 2009.
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Southeast_Regional_Elections

You probably found this one already, but here is a list of all initiatives (prior to the creation of the legislature).
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Southeast_Law

     Indeed, I've been working at updating the laws & have just sectioned it off by year, though I am planning on assigning proper numbers to all of the newer initiatives & bills. There are actually many laws that are not yet on there, but I've made it up to April 2009.

     Once that is up-to-date, I want to get all of the elections up there. Granted, most of them aren't interesting, but we ought to have them up anyway,

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Section 2 of the Safe Abortion Initiative, as passed on February 20, 2006:

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     Somehow, there do not appear to be any appropriations or any other taxes or fees imposed between 101 & 150. Maybe the IDS really is fiscally conservative.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good. 

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Section 2 of The Off-Shore Religious Organizations Initiative, as passed on April 24, 2007:

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     Also note the Help The Southeast Study For Serious Act, which makes use of funds provided to the region by the The Help Atlasia Study Act of 2009.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

As far as revenues go, we should probably average up all the tax rates from different states rather than base it off Georgia; otherwise we will be severely in debt.  And I have a full schedule today and tomorrow; hopefully by Wednesday I will find time.

If anyone wants to help, average up the revenues.  I'm not asking you, PiT (you've done plenty already), but we have two legislators, a Viceroy, an Attorney General, and two senators who are more than welcome to pitch in

     The problem is,  we already did base it on Georgia.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

As far as revenues go, we should probably average up all the tax rates from different states rather than base it off Georgia; otherwise we will be severely in debt.  And I have a full schedule today and tomorrow; hopefully by Wednesday I will find time.

If anyone wants to help, average up the revenues.  I'm not asking you, PiT (you've done plenty already), but we have two legislators, a Viceroy, an Attorney General, and two senators who are more than welcome to pitch in

     The problem is,  we already did base it on Georgia.

Meh.  Laws can be repealed.  If my interpretation of that initiative is correct, it is utterly nonsensical.

     It does offer up a problem in that the laws passed by the Legislature are not "initiative laws", & could be interpreted as ineffectual in superseding the laws laid out by that initiative.

     The problem with Atlasia is that laws are often drafted in a haphazard fashion with little regard to consequences or existing statute. Of course, real-life politicians are probably plenty guilty of this as well.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

As far as revenues go, we should probably average up all the tax rates from different states rather than base it off Georgia; otherwise we will be severely in debt.  And I have a full schedule today and tomorrow; hopefully by Wednesday I will find time.

If anyone wants to help, average up the revenues.  I'm not asking you, PiT (you've done plenty already), but we have two legislators, a Viceroy, an Attorney General, and two senators who are more than welcome to pitch in

     The problem is,  we already did base it on Georgia.

Meh.  Laws can be repealed.  If my interpretation of that initiative is correct, it is utterly nonsensical.

     It does offer up a problem in that the laws passed by the Legislature are not "initiative laws", & could be interpreted as ineffectual in superseding the laws laid out by that initiative.

     The problem with Atlasia is that laws are often drafted in a haphazard fashion with little regard to consequences or existing statute. Of course, real-life politicians are probably plenty guilty of this as well.

How about you take dictatorial powers for the night and delete in from the wiki?  No one will be any the wiser.

     Heh. Inconvenient laws get disappeared in this region? Seems like this place is becoming more imperial all the time.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Spending (AL,AR,FL,GA,LA,MS,NC,SC,TN,TX):

Pensions: $38,100,000,000
Health care: $121,900,000,000
Education: $73,400,000,000
Defense: $600,000,000
Welfare: $40,400,000,000
Protection: $21,500,000,000
Transportation: $28,200,000,000
General government: $7,400,000,000
Other spending: $18,700,000,000
Interest: $7,400,000,000
Balance: -$4,400,000,000
Σ: $352,100,000,000

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

As far as revenues go, we should probably average up all the tax rates from different states rather than base it off Georgia; otherwise we will be severely in debt.  And I have a full schedule today and tomorrow; hopefully by Wednesday I will find time.

If anyone wants to help, average up the revenues.  I'm not asking you, PiT (you've done plenty already), but we have two legislators, a Viceroy, an Attorney General, and two senators who are more than welcome to pitch in

     The problem is,  we already did base it on Georgia.

Meh.  Laws can be repealed.  If my interpretation of that initiative is correct, it is utterly nonsensical.

     It does offer up a problem in that the laws passed by the Legislature are not "initiative laws", & could be interpreted as ineffectual in superseding the laws laid out by that initiative.

     The problem with Atlasia is that laws are often drafted in a haphazard fashion with little regard to consequences or existing statute. Of course, real-life politicians are probably plenty guilty of this as well.

If our now elected legislature has replaced the Initiative process as the law making body of the region, then it should have the power to repeal / amend initiatives.

     The initiative process still exists, though. It just isn't ever used except for passing amendments.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I've always preferred to write out the figures. I suppose it's probably because $100,000,000,000 looks bigger than $100 billion, which is conducive to my ideological tack.

     If you drill down the defense category, you find the bulk of the spending goes to G85, which appears to be miscellaneous veterans' services. The box on the bottom suggests that it has to do with "land & existing structures", but the Exclusions section states that retirement homes or grants & loans for home improvement/purchase would be reported differently. Not too sure what happened there.