IDS Budget and Tax Committee

[Badger]

Heartily endorsed! This is something I hope all regions will undertake in some form in the foreseeable future.

Please let me know how the GM's Office can be of assistance.

[Badger]

Let me offer some general ideas for a framework based on what the Mideast has done. I emphasize "general" and "framework" as the IDS will characteristically do its own thing.

Check out the links in the following posts in the budget thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2756417#msg2756417
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2769048#msg2769048
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2774577#msg2774577
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789445#msg2789445
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789731#msg2789731

The benefit here is it allows comparison to real life for several broad spending and taxing catagories. The structure makes it relatively simple to assess the results of taxing and spending decisions based on RL comparison. The actual taxing and spending levels within that framework are 100% your own.

Thoughts?

[Badger]

Let me offer some general ideas for a framework based on what the Mideast has done. I emphasize "general" and "framework" as the IDS will characteristically do its own thing.

Check out the links in the following posts in the budget thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2756417#msg2756417
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2769048#msg2769048
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2774577#msg2774577
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789445#msg2789445
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789731#msg2789731

The benefit here is it allows comparison to real life for several broad spending and taxing categories. The structure makes it relatively simple to assess the results of taxing and spending decisions based on RL comparison. The actual taxing and spending levels within that framework are 100% your own.

Thoughts?

Phew!

That's a lot.  A very good suggestion but it will take some work.  Looking down that list, I noticed categories that the SE has never past spending bills related to.  Should we assume that we were spending in these categories during the past few years or not?  If we don't, we will have an unrealistically large surplus without any of the negatives associated with not spending any money in some of the categories.  However, that seems like a bit of a realism killer.

I would take it that you are spending whatever levels you determine you're spending, regardless of past legislation or lack thereof. In other words, treat this as "year one" for determining how much is being spent in these various categories. However faithful you want to be to prior legislation is up to you guys (and commendable), but don't let the fact the IDS (e.g.) never passed a budget for police and prisons (other than the free range one ) stop you all from deciding to appropriate 'X' Billion towards police and prisons. Unless you guys insist otherwise the GM is willing to give a mulligan on prior spending in this category.

That said, I will base the relative level of services provided through a comparison of real life expenditures to whatever you guys appropriate. In other words if RL expenditures for "protection" in the 10 states comprising the IDS are $10 Billion, but the IDS only appropriates $5 Billion, that means the IDS will have to prepare a plan for dealing with half the prisons, guards, parole officers, and state troopers the real world south deals with, and/or suffer whatever ramifications the GM determines would arise from such funding levels.

With that in mind, PiT, I assure you with this economy the LAST thing you guys will have to deal with is "large surpluses".

[Badger]

Let me offer some general ideas for a framework based on what the Mideast has done. I emphasize "general" and "framework" as the IDS will characteristically do its own thing.

Check out the links in the following posts in the budget thread:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2756417#msg2756417
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2769048#msg2769048
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2774577#msg2774577
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789445#msg2789445
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789731#msg2789731

The benefit here is it allows comparison to real life for several broad spending and taxing categories. The structure makes it relatively simple to assess the results of taxing and spending decisions based on RL comparison. The actual taxing and spending levels within that framework are 100% your own.

Thoughts?

Phew!

That's a lot.  A very good suggestion but it will take some work.  Looking down that list, I noticed categories that the SE has never past spending bills related to.  Should we assume that we were spending in these categories during the past few years or not?  If we don't, we will have an unrealistically large surplus without any of the negatives associated with not spending any money in some of the categories.  However, that seems like a bit of a realism killer.

I would take it that you are spending whatever levels you determine you're spending, regardless of past legislation or lack thereof. In other words, treat this as "year one" for determining how much is being spent in these various categories. However faithful you want to be to prior legislation is up to you guys (and commendable), but don't let the fact the IDS (e.g.) never passed a budget for police and prisons (other than the free range one ) stop you all from deciding to appropriate 'X' Billion towards police and prisons. Unless you guys insist otherwise the GM is willing to give a mulligan on prior spending in this category.

That said, I will base the relative level of services provided through a comparison of real life expenditures to whatever you guys appropriate. In other words if RL expenditures for "protection" in the 10 states comprising the IDS are $10 Billion, but the IDS only appropriates $5 Billion, that means the IDS will have to prepare a plan for dealing with half the prisons, guards, parole officers, and state troopers the real world south deals with, and/or suffer whatever ramifications the GM determines would arise from such funding levels.

With that in mind, PiT, I assure you with this economy the LAST thing you guys will have to deal with is "large surpluses".

     Now is not the greatest time to do the budget if you want to get a rosy picture of things, but it is still good to get it done.

Amen, brother.

[Badger]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

It all depends. The economy tanking has had a real hit on tax revenues.

It'll all come down to tax revenue and spending, but I doubt you'll have anywhere near that amount of surplus to begin with.

Could you link the $2 Bil surplus estimate, please?

[Badger]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

It all depends. The economy tanking has had a real hit on tax revenues.

It'll all come down to tax revenue and spending, but I doubt you'll have anywhere near that amount of surplus to begin with.

Could you link the $2 Bil surplus estimate, please?

Right Here.https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=101096.msg2467899#msg2467899

And I meant that we had a surplus as of the time we were told we had a surplus.  What we have now will be different, probably a lot less.

Gotcha, and thanks.

Again, let me offer this piece of advice: To maintain consistency in budgeting its very important for the GM's Office and the IDS Region to be on the same page and using the same structure.

For that reason I suggest using this website. If you pick a state in the IDS (Texas for example) and click on spending for 2011, the lower right hand corner will show the State's real life spending divided into 6 major categories (pensions, health care, education, etc). If you click on 2011 in that graph, it takes you to a slightly more detailed breakdown of spending with a couple additional spending categories ("general government", "interest", etc. see Texas here), and each of those spending categories can be expanded to various subcategories (e.g. Education subdivides into spending for pre-primary through secondary education, tertiary education, and education not definable by level; each of those subcategories can also be subdivided into sub-sub categories of spending for even more details on spending.

The taxes link for each state offers similar breakdowns of tax revenues from various sources in different levels of breakdown, from general to detailed. Whether you guys want to use the most detailed breakdowns available with all the spending/taxing subcategories available, or if you want to just use the most basic breakdown of about half a general categories listed here, is totally up to you. Likewise, the actual spending and taxing levels are totally up to you gas well.

However, propose using this website's basic structure to design your own regional budget. It allows me as GM to make ready comparisons to RL spending and tax revenues levels, and again keeps us all on the same page. Its been invaluable in getting the Mideast budget off the ground.

But as always, its your game and your decision. Any thoughts or comments here?

[Badger]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

[Badger]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good.  

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

Added to expenses.  I'll do it for revenues on Thursday.

I wasn't sure whether to add up the state totals for interest and gross public debt; in the end I did but I can remove it if that was wrong.  Also, does anyone know where to find budgetary statistics for Puerto Rico?  Badger's excellent site did not include PR.

My advise re: PR---fake it.

Seriously though, its only a relatively small share of the region's population (and thus, its economy), so unless you get lucky and easily find a website with readily available info, just base your figures on all the other states you have the figures for. If you really want, we can jack up the total spending and revenue numbers from those "mainland" states we have figures for by about 5% to account for PR's approximate share of the region's population, but even that's hardly necessary.

[Badger]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good. 

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

Agreed re: spending. If you decide to cut or raise spending in any particular area then services may decrease/improve accordingly from current real world standards in IDS states. Though if any specific idea/policy is implemented to minimize the effects of the cuts on actual services provided, I'll consider it accordingly. The key word here is "specific", though; simply directing IDS agencies "to weed out waste and fraud" will account for little.

Re: revenues though, the key will be what tax rates the IDS sets compared to RL. For example, see these posts re: the Mideast budget:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789445#msg2789445
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2769048#msg2769048

In the first link I "averaged" the RL income tax rates for states in the Mideast region (my calculations are explained therein), and compared it to the proposed regional income tax rate and determined the Mideast is facing almost a 50% drop in income tax revenue if the proposal is adopted.

In the second link I similarly averaged the RL state sales tax levels to a "regional" rate of 5.7% with groceries and prescriptions exempted. The Mideast proposal has adopted this level so sales tax revenue levels will be similar to RL sales tax revenues.

The point here is I agree, PiT, that RL spending levels should be the base for RL government services in the IDS. The revenue levels however will be of course based on whatever tax levels you set, using RL tax rates as the basis for computing the revenue it produces. Does that make sense?

[Badger]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

As far as revenues go, we should probably average up all the tax rates from different states rather than base it off Georgia; otherwise we will be severely in debt.  And I have a full schedule today and tomorrow; hopefully by Wednesday I will find time.

If anyone wants to help, average up the revenues.  I'm not asking you, PiT (you've done plenty already), but we have two legislators, a Viceroy, an Attorney General, and two senators who are more than welcome to pitch in

     The problem is,  we already did base it on Georgia.

Meh.  Laws can be repealed.  If my interpretation of that initiative is correct, it is utterly nonsensical.

     It does offer up a problem in that the laws passed by the Legislature are not "initiative laws", & could be interpreted as ineffectual in superseding the laws laid out by that initiative.

     The problem with Atlasia is that laws are often drafted in a haphazard fashion with little regard to consequences or existing statute. Of course, real-life politicians are probably plenty guilty of this as well.

All good points from both of you. One thing that needs to be done (and while ultimately the GM Office's duty, I'm MORE than willing to accept help from you active IDSers here) is to figure out the "average" RL tax rate (sales, income, excise, etc.) in IDS states so that it can be compared to whatever tax rates the IDS adopts (currently, it appears, identical to 2006 GA) and resulting revenue calculated.

As a very simple example (with made up numbers) using the above websites cited, if IDS states in RL produced "$100 Billion" in annual sales tax revenue, and are determined to have an "average" sales tax rate of say, 5%, then if the IDS say adopts a 4% tax rate, then that would accordingly produce approximately $80 billion in annual revenue (4/5 of the $100 billion produced in RL by a 5% rate).

See those posts I linked in the Mideast on how I "averaged" real life regional tax rates. It's pretty easy for sales tax. Income tax gets a little trickier as every state has their own income brackets, but its still doable as most states seemed to have a couple brackets for very, very low income that could easily be grouped together, plus maybe one or two brackets for the middle class and a similar number for the very wealthy. Its still quite doable to get a reasonable estimate of "average" tax rates that way.

BTW: The IDS will certainly be given appropriate revenue for additional sources not present in real life, just as PiT mentioned the taxable sale of marijuana, or what I assume is the more permissive gambling laws allowing casinos and the like.

Here's what I'd suggest as necessary steps:

1) Using this website, adding up the real life FY 2011 spending of the 10 IDS states combined (again, we can skip PR for now ) in each of the major spending categories listed: (Pensions, Health Care, etc.). Its a bit tedious, but can probably be accomplished in about half an hour with a calculator.

2) Ditto for RL tax revenue from all the IDS states in each of the major tax types listed (income, "ad valorum" which are primarily sales taxes, etc.).

3) Figure out the "average" RL tax rates in these various listed categories (income, sales, etc). The real life tax rates are mostly available at these websites:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_statetaxrate_oh.html

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/itax/edit/state/profiles/state_tax_Ohio.asp

If anyone can present the RL tax rates together for review, I will GLADLY do the work of averaging them.

4) From there, its simply a matter of deciding what tax rates and spending the region has adopted/will adopt, and comparing it to RL taxes and spending to determine your budget. For example, a 4% sales tax will only bring in about 4/5 the revenue of a real life "average" sales tax of 5%. A 10% cut in education spending won't necessarily directly reduce test scores and/or raise local taxes by an exact 10%, but will surely be felt somehow, particularly in the long run.

Once steps 1-3 are done for the first time, any changes to the budget over time are comparably easy to figure out. The trick is taking the hour or two to do those first 3 steps, but by working together and dividing the labor.........

[Badger]

Spending (AL,AR,FL,GA,LA,MS,NC,SC,TN,TX):

Pensions: $38,100,000,000
Health care: $121,900,000,000
Education: $73,400,000,000
Defense: $600,000,000
Welfare: $40,400,000,000
Protection: $21,500,000,000
Transportation: $28,200,000,000
General government: $7,400,000,000
Other spending: $18,700,000,000
Interest: $7,400,000,000
Balance: -$4,400,000,000
Σ: $352,100,000,000

AWESOME start, Emperor!

Though for future reference you could probably save some typing by listing the figures in Billions to the first decimal point, e.g. "$38.1 Bil" for Pensions.

BTW: Any idea what the $600 mil in "defense" spending is? IIRC it was all from the TX budget. Maybe Perry was serious about secession.

So, on to step #2?

[Badger]

     Looking at the high rate of spending you attributed to education, did you calculate it for both state & local spending? I only did state spending, principally because I wanted to avoid the added complication of dealing with revenue due to local taxes. Leave the municipalities to fend for themselves, I say.

For determining a regional budget, it should list state revenues and spending only.

[Badger]

     Looking at the high rate of spending you attributed to education, did you calculate it for both state & local spending? I only did state spending, principally because I wanted to avoid the added complication of dealing with revenue due to local taxes. Leave the municipalities to fend for themselves, I say.

For determining a regional budget, it should list state revenues and spending only.

     Interesting isn't it, that we give more autonomy to cities & counties than states here in the IDS? Cities & counties get to levy their own taxes whereas states depend on the region for revenue.

Well, are "states" really political sub-entities of regions in Atlasia? My take on it is "no". It seems regions replaced states in the federal/regional/local divide of federalism.

[Badger]

    Great job! Also, a $200 billion surplus seems a little too good to be true.

Yeah, I have been trying to think of ways around that.  If it's ok with Badger, we can add another item to the revenue category named "Moderator Credit" or some such.  This would consist of enough money for that $200 billion surplus to have been true in April 2010 when it was assigned.  However, each month $10 billion would be automatically deducted until the category was whittled down to zero, where it would likely remain.  In the future it can be used for adjustments and budgets that need to temporarily deviate from reality for whatever reason.

Under that plan, the IDS would be down to $90 billion in moderator credit; $0 would be reached in December 2011.

EDIT: Actually, it will take a tad more that $200 billion to create a $200 billion surplus (duh!).  Instead of subtracting a $10 billion a month, we should subtract 5% of that original number.  If it's ok with you PiT, I will PM Badger about this.

Also, looking at the bills and initiatives that need to be integrated into our budget, I think we will need to add all of the subheadings.   

Hmmmmm. I'll have to think about this. Actually many states do have a rainy day fund. And while $200 billion may seem a lot, spread out over 10 southern states (including TX and FL)? Maybe not that farfetched.

Anyone have an idea (or willing to check) what the southern states RL rainy day fund (or equivilent) status is like?

[Badger]

    Great job! Also, a $200 billion surplus seems a little too good to be true.

Yeah, I have been trying to think of ways around that.  If it's ok with Badger, we can add another item to the revenue category named "Moderator Credit" or some such.  This would consist of enough money for that $200 billion surplus to have been true in April 2010 when it was assigned.  However, each month $10 billion would be automatically deducted until the category was whittled down to zero, where it would likely remain.  In the future it can be used for adjustments and budgets that need to temporarily deviate from reality for whatever reason.

Under that plan, the IDS would be down to $90 billion in moderator credit; $0 would be reached in December 2011.

EDIT: Actually, it will take a tad more that $200 billion to create a $200 billion surplus (duh!).  Instead of subtracting a $10 billion a month, we should subtract 5% of that original number.  If it's ok with you PiT, I will PM Badger about this.

Also, looking at the bills and initiatives that need to be integrated into our budget, I think we will need to add all of the subheadings.   

Hmmmmm. I'll have to think about this. Actually many states do have a rainy day fund. And while $200 billion may seem a lot, spread out over 10 southern states (including TX and FL)? Maybe not that farfetched.

Anyone have an idea (or willing to check) what the southern states RL rainy day fund (or equivalent) status is like?

This website provides a graph showing the percentage of annual expenditures in 2008 that went into a rainy day fund.  Georgia, the state which IDS law is based off of, devoted between 5% and 10% of its annual expenditures to a rainy day fund.  Assuming that 10% of the IDS budget was added as a rainy day fund, that would create a rainy day fund of $32.21 billion.  Probably not enough to offset the deficit but it's something.

Looking at the underlying data for that graph, it appears Georgia's rainy day fund was only at 5.3% of its annual expenditures. Most other IDS states varied from Arkansas (zilch) to Texas (10.2%).

I have studiously determined that the $200 Billion surplus appears, sadly, to have primarily resulted from accounting errors and overestimation of future receipts which were heavily decimated by the recession. There's also mysterious withdrawls to a Cayman Islands account simply listed under "NCYnk".

Even 10% I'm afraid is not realistic when only Texas meets that level in RL. That said, based on TX having a hugely disproportionate share of regional revenues, some other states being in the 5-10% range, plus a bonus for Yelnoc finding this website and doing preliminary calculations (that's always looked upon favorably by the GM's Office ), I'll put the IDS Rainy Day Fund balance at exactly (coincidentally) $25 Bil (or nearly 8% of annual expenditures).

If anyone thinks my numbers are off or unfair in someway, though, I'm always ready to listen.

[Badger]

I'll keep this page updated with my endeavors in calculating those regional tax rates.

My initial thoughts are that tax rates are going to be difficult to come by using that US Government Revenue site; it gives each states revenue from these sources but not the actual rates (see the top of page 6).  We do have two states in the IDS, Florida and Texas, which institute no income tax.  To further complicate matters, Texas does not have a normal corporate tax, opting instead for a gross margins business tax.  We really should standardize the IDS tax code.  

That thought leads down an interesting road.  We are assuming that the states are collecting taxes and sending all of the revenue to us.  Does this mean that all State Departments are unfunded?  Meaning, in turn, that any services not explicitly legislated by the Southeast Region are not in place?  I can't believe that in five years no one has thought to look at the logistics of the region!

One little bit of help: If you can provide the GM's Office a list of IDS RL income tax rates (or at least links directly to the states' rates), I can calculate the RL "average" income tax for the region.

Whatever tax rates you guys decide is totally up to you, of course. The point for the RL "regional" income tax rate is that whatever it turns out to be produced approximately $35.6 Billion in revenue (as Yelnoc calculated here). So a determination of however much revenue is produced by whatever tax level you ultimately legislate will be made based on the RL regional average producing $35.6 Bil.

For example, Yelnoc's proposal is for a 6% income tax rate (presumably a flat rate as it reads? Yes, it wouldn't be the IDS if people didn't think progressive tax rates were icky ). If the RL average income tax rate for IDS states is determined to be (e.g.) 3%, then passing a 6% rate would produce roughly twice the revenue as RL: $35.6 Bil x2 = $71.2 Bil.

[Badger]

     I doubt it, given that actual non-zero figures are attributed to Florida, Tennessee, & Texas in the article.

Darn.  I have been looking through different pdf's on income taxes (from state websites) and I am beginning to think our quest for one figure for each state is much to simplistic.

For income taxes, probably. Only a minority have either no such tax or a flat tax. However I think a rough estimate can be made by comparing RL income brackets for states with progressive graduated rates.

But yes, comparing those states' income brackets is still necessary to avoid "a reasonable estimated comparison" from devolving into a "half-assed guess".

As Speaker Yelnoc pointed out, participation/delegation by the entire legislature is a good thing.

[Badger]

In the words of the President "Let me be clear."

Two Categories
-State Spending/Revenue: Taken from Badger's excellent website, all real data, the "base values"
-Regional Spending/Revenue: Everything passed as an initiative or a bill

We find the categories of each (State is already done) and present our findings.  That means that we will have the budget history of the region up to the present.  From there we will combine the two, do the overhauls, and mold the budget into shape.

I think Yelnoc's got it here, though Emperor PiT is absolutely right about just leaving local spending off the ledgers. As regions are the Atlasian equivalent of states in RL, the spending and taxing by local municipalities doesn't affect the regional budget. Local governments are separate entities from regions in Atlasia and states in RL, so the IDS regional government can't control those decisions.

(Okay, technically the region could pass laws limiting local governments' ability to levy taxes, but lets get a firm grip on the IDS Regional Budget before we start worrying about local municipal budgets. )

The level of adherence to regional legislative history (i.e. prior laws passed regarding taxing and spending) is totally up to you guys. Just know that you guys do have the option here of essentially "reboot", either partial or total, for budgeting purposes. Also know the GM's Office determined the IDS has a rainy day fund of $25 Bil; that's all you need to worry about for now regarding prior debt or deficits.

@ Taft: Nice job finding info on PR!

@ Yelnoc: Thanks for the RL state income tax data. I'll try getting to an analysis soon to construct an "average" RL regional income tax rate.

[Badger]

You know, we are going to have to codify how we do this budget thing in the future.  I am thinking at the beginning of every year we present a new budget including all of last years appropriations.  Otherwise this will be a mess to keep a handle on.

     I'm thinking I might keep a running tally on all new taxes & appropriations passed. If nothing else, it gives us a reason to be specific with money totals.

Excellant idea. Ideally, that's what a regional budget should be. After the hard part of establishing a first time budget structure and numbers, it could simply be an ongoing tally sheet based on legislation passed (and maybe events from the GM ). You only have to do the actual formal annual (orr quarterly "budget or shutdown" resolution like we're seeing in Washington if you really want to (and are masochists ).

BTW: If I don't post an analysis of the region's income tax revenue by Monday, I hereby authorize--even encourage--the IDS to remind/nag me then.

[Badger]

Alabama's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $500, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 2%.
If your income range is between $501 and $3,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4%.
If your income range is $3,000 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 5%.


Arkansas's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $3,700, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 1%.
If your income range is between $3,701 and $7,400, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 2.5%.
If your income range is between $7,401 and $11,100, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 3.5%.
If your income range is between $11,101 and $18,600, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4.5%.
If your income range is between $18,601 and $31,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6%.
If your income range is $31,000 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 7%.


Florida: No Personal Income Tax


Georgia's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $750, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 1%.
If your income range is between $751 and $2,250, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 2%.
If your income range is between $2,251 and $3,750, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 3%.
If your income range is between $3,751 and $5,250, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4%.
If your income range is between $5,251 and $7,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 5%.
If your income range is $7,001 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6%.


Louisiana's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $12,500, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 2%.
If your income range is between $12,501 and $50,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4%.
If your income range is $50,001 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6%.


Mississippi's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $5,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 3%.
If your income range is between $5,001 and $10,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4%.
If your income range is $10,001 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 5%.


North Carolina's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $12,750, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6%.
If your income range is between $12,751 and $60,000, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 7%.
If your income range is $60,001 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 7.75%.


South Carolina's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is between $0 and $2,630, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 0%.
If your income range is between $2,631 and $5,260, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 3%.
If your income range is between $5,261 and $7,890, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 4%.
If your income range is between $7,891 and $10,520, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 5%.
If your income range is between $10,521 and $13,150, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6%.
If your income range is $13,151 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 7%.


Tennessee's (Personal) Income tax Rates:

If your income range is $0 and over, your tax rate on every dollar of income earned is 6%.


Texas: No Personal Income Tax

The GM Office's analysis of the IDS income tax rates compared to RL, and according revenue produced is as follows:

I roughly calculated the RL income tax rate in IDS states to equal approximately a 3.35% flat rate. This was done by estimating the "average" overall tax rate of those states with graduated rates, then averaging each state by population weight. Needless to say, Texas and FL having no income tax rate and about half the region's population greatly dragged down the average.

Accordingly, by calculating the RL income tax rates as producing $35.6 Billion, I've similarly calculated that the proposed (or current?) IDS flat tax rate of 6% would produce $63.75 Bil. This should help somewhat with budgeting, eh?

Two important points: First please note that the website we've been using (a real tea party fest there if anyone wishes to accuse me of allowing my own views to color the numbers ) states that $35.6 Billion is for both personal and corporate income tax. Please advise ASAP if the IDS corporate income tax rate is substantially different than the personal rate. If so, I'm afraid I may need help in figuring out the RL corporate rates as Yelnoc did before with individual rates in order to estimate corporate revenue. Otherwise, I'm willing to assume a regional flat 6% rate on corporate income too, and happily willing to also assume the windfall described is applicable here.

Secondly, I've lost track a bit with the discussion. Please advise ASAP if there is something else you need the GM's Office to do an analysis of. Thanks!

[Badger]

     Our tax rate is nearly flat, but I approximated it as being flat. Unless otherwise specified by statute, our laws are those of Georgia c.2006. As you can see from Yelnoc's post that you quoted, Georgia's income tax is actually split into six brackets, but they are all at such low incomes that the ultimate effect is close to that of a flat tax.

     Anyway, the IDS corporate income tax rate is 8.6%. I've noticed that that's actually a bit high for a sub-national government, though, so I would be happy to assist by reducing it to 6%.

I guesstimated (generously) that GA's rate would equate about a 5.8% flat rate with the lower rates. Let me know if the IDS decides to accept that over a 6% flat rate. If so, the revenue would be $61.65 Bil instead.

Or we can keep an 8.6% corporate rate and not only call it even, but also raise the GM Office's revenue estimates upwards further.

[Badger]

     5.8% should be fine, unless we want to change that as well.

     The corporate income tax is problematic insofar as it makes us uncompetitive when regions like the Mideast have graduated rates that max out at 5%. If we lowered the corporate income tax rate to 5.8%, it would simplify the budget process & help the region's economy.

Sure.  We'll have to go through the legislature I suppose.  Should the bill set both income taxes at 5.8% or just corporate?

The Mideast "budget" is just a proposal. I would wait until the Mideast actually assesses what their final budget is before worrying too much about "competativeness". GM's assessment to follow there.

[Badger]

     Actually, we never added in the income tax stuff. We already have a ~5.8% income tax rate, which will certainly eliminate the gap when accounted for.

So we multiply the tax paying portion of the IDS population by 5.8.  The question is, how many citizens of the IDS are taxpayers?

     According to ths, there was 142 million tax returns filed in 2008, or 28.4 million in the region. I once estimated the average income of a citizen of the region at $40,000, which translates into a payout of $2,320/person, on average. Multiplying that with the 28.4 million taxpayers, I get $65,900,000,000/year? That seems rather high, though I suppose it makes sense when we aren't taking tax credits directly into account, though there are some provided for elsewhere under regional law that we have already calculate (Southeast Educational Incentive Act, for one).

Whoa, whoa, whoa here!

I would insist we use this calculation instead. For determination of income tax revenue.

[Badger]

I admit I've lost total track of the calculations here (and that's a compliment to the number and detail of posts here). If possible, could we post a summarized budget with calculations noted herein so I can review/grade it all at once please?

Again, great job guys.